14x12 frames. Is it enough?

[warts]

OK, I am after some reassurance here (please don't shout, I know I am in the wrong), I know this was possibly not the correct course of action...but was done with the best of intentions. Let me explain.

A little bit of history...
Got my bees 2009. They were in nat BB, and swarmed within a month. Decided to move them to 14x12 frames (after consulting this site, and coincidently, really like this size of frame). I put the new BB frames above the old BB, with the aim removing the nat BB, but when it came down to it, well, I just wasn't brave enough. There were many many bees (I genuinely thought that they would not all fit in at the time), and then came the horrible afterthought, with so many bees, will there bee enough food for them? So I left them both boxes. Ensured plenty of stores and room for Q to lay. Yes, I know WRONG WRONG WRONG, but...

the trade off as I saw it was this...what would I rather get wrong, not enough food, or having to heat a bigger space. It was a no-brainer really. Bees, IMHO, could at least generate heat if they had extra food.



They came out of it in spring very well indeed (as did the other hive [the swarm] which I had also put on to 14x12 plus nat BB). Decided to take them down to just 14x12 BB for winter 2010. But again, I lost my nerve (sorry, but not a brave soul at all, and again many many bees when I was getting them ready for bed).

Question now is...

I now want to resolve this once and for all this year, and take them down to one 14x12 BB over winter. Partly because it is less hassle to take down to one BB again in the spring, also because I think there should be enough space (given what lots of other people seem to be doing). Also, interestingly, there is a lot less brood now than there was this time last year (Qs on both hives have really cut back to approx. brood on 6 frames, when was on approx. 8+ last year).

So? I here you ask.

Well, can you please reassure me that 14x12 is going to be enough. My head says yes, but my heart says 'what if I get it wrong'. I am not a gambler, and weirdly it feels very much like a gamble of sorts

sorry for the waffle, just don't want to kill them through 'pilot error', so to speak, and thought a bit of background might help


Sally

 

[Moggs]

Sally - 14 x 12 will accommodate a huge colony. Trim them down as you say when the numbers are in natural decline (they will probably 'fit' anyway!). You could just isolate the queen in the 14 x 12 and allow the brood in the standard to emerge.

But hey, you've done nothing fundamentally wrong as you have run to date! If the bees are happy......

 

[warts]

Thanks Moggs. Reassurance is good. Will to drop them down to just one BB.

Sally

 

[oliver90owner]

The bees will nestle down, somewhere in the hive, to their choice. A strong colony will cope with the extra space and find the least cold/draughty place to cluster for the winter. That said, a weaker colony will fare better with a smaller box and it is better use of honey resources if it is not left in the hive for a couple of seasons! I have found colonies near the bottom of the hive when left with extra boxes over.

Some leave colonies on double deeps over winter, as a matter of course, if they are strong. That is more than a jumbo. A double brood is about a jumbo plus a shallow. So you are only 'half a box' over, maybe.

If they are on an OMF with no top ventilation they could simply move up, if they wished, as the winter progressed, if they wanted to move to a warmer spot.

A 14 x 12 is certainly enough. My bees here in S Lincs don't need 'extra' feed during winter and usually have more than enough for spring build-up (I actually removed stores frames this last spring!). I used to leave a brood plus a super in my early beekeeping years and have not fed fondant seriously for the last 4 or 5 years.

Most on the forum likely leave just the single deep brood and check the need for extra feed late in the winter or for the spring expansion. With an OMF I like that little extra depth in the 14 x 12 box (for really cold spells), the confidence that they will not need disturbing until late into February, and if they do not survive it was not down to me. I no longer like the idea of a gap between winter stores boxes.

Having said all that some will be wintered this year on ten frames, plus an insulated divider at each end, as an experiment. Robin Dartington advised leaving only 9 (or possibly 10) brood frames in the LDH IIRC.

Is the deep on top of the jumbo? If it is that strong you may be better fitting a super (after excluding the queen to just the jumbo box) and getting a late super of honey from them by putting the deep under the 14 x 12 after the brood has emerged (as they will move stores up from that bottom box). Or you could extract the honey remnants from the broodless deeps.

Lots of options, your choice at the end of the day and, as you say, better to be safe than sorry - and you know they have been OK in the huge boxes already.

You are that much further north than I am, but that is what I plan to do over the next few weeks (before harvest and then varroa treatments). Much more important to get those mites in the autumn and for thecolonies to be taking healthy bees into the winter cluster.

I do have the flexibility to swap and/or unite, if things pan out not quite according to plan, at the tail end of the season.

Regards, RAB

 

[warts]

Wow! A very detailed reply. Thank you RAB, greatly appreciated, and some good options identified. And I am certainly working to your advice re sorting out the mites as a priority, which I need to timetable in effectively. However, sorry to be a real dunce, but what does the following stand for..."LDH IIRC." ? I have sort of hazarded a guess at Langstroth Dadant Hive for 'LDH'. Not sure if this is right. But no idea at all about IIRC.

Again, much appreciated. I know long posts can be a little 'chewy', so, again thanks


Sally

 

[Moggs]

If I Recall Correctly

 

[Skyhook]

My feeling would be to put a QE on top of the 14 x 12, then the std brood having bruised the stores, then a drawn super; giving the workers a chance to hatch out the brood before removal, and move the stores up into the super. Remove BB when mostly empty. If the 14 x 12 plus super looks really full, move the super under the 14 x 12 for winter: otherwise it's yours.

Anyone care to comment on that as a plan?

However: IIRC, Finman likes a colony to fill 2 Langstroth boxes. If I've worked it out right, that would be about equivalent to std brood plus 14 x 12. Anyone wan't to tell Finman he's wrong?

 

[vonclatt]

Having said all that some will be wintered this year on ten frames, plus an insulated divider at each end, as an experiment. Robin Dartington advised leaving only 9 (or possibly 10) brood frames in the LDH IIRC.

RAB

1st year newbee running a Dartington, I got a copy of Robin's book which recommends overwintering on 9 - 10 frames of 14"x12"

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes,

Moggs has the one and The Dartington is a Long Deep Hive (although really Long Extra deep Hive!).

Regards, RAB