Double Brood Boxes

Hi all,

What are the influencing factors that would lead you to run a hive on double brood ?

I currently have a very busy hive on a single deep brood box, with 6 frames of wall to wall brood; 4 out of the 6 frames are sealed

Cheers

Al

Are those 14x12 frames? Good luck going double brood with those I must admit am not a fan myself. I much prefer standard deeps and the flexibility they have.

A good dense consistent laying pattern from the queen, so she might eventually need double brood. However the cells which do not contain brood appear to be brimming with nectar. I would put on a super, for nectar storage, if they are tight. That will make more space for brood, then reassess her performance

Hi

Yes 14x12 frames and there is already an empty super on them :>

What I was interested in is what factors lead people to more to double brood with supers over single brood with more supers. Thoughts ?????

Macdee said:

with 6 frames of wall to wall brood; 4 out of the 6 frames are sealed

Al

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No disrespect, but those frames are not "wall to wall".Just a circle of brood in the upper top with nectar in the outer cells.
Look like 14 x 12's.....Still a lot of bees...depends what you have on other frames.
More info please.

Beefriendly said:

No disrespect, but those frames are not "wall to wall".Just a circle of brood in the upper top with nectar in the outer cells.
Look like 14 x 12's.....Still a lot of bees...depends what you have on other frames.
More info please.

Click to expand...

Good strong laying pattern though ... queen seems to be performing well. I'd be happy with frames like that at this time of the year.

Macdee said:

Hi

Yes 14x12 frames and there is already an empty super on them :>

What I was interested in is what factors lead people to more to double brood with supers over single brood with more supers. Thoughts ?????

Click to expand...

It’s down to available space for the queen to lay. Also I use some deep frames as supers so it’s easy to remove honey/nectar clogged frames away from the brood chamber.

Fecundity of the queen. Nice brood pattern.

I'd personally be interested (as a 14*12 man) to know of positive experiences from those who have gone double brood on that format.

Why would you ?? Surely running a one-box system is one of the advantages of 14*12. The way that I see it, even a standard national has enough room (brood cells) to accommodate even the most fecund Queen, in peak lay; the main issue then being congestion, and the attendant behaviours (e.g. bearding) and risks (propensity to swarm)... Hence why (and for other brood/swarm management reasons, like ease of Demaree) many on standard nationals choose to run a two box system (brood and a half, or double brood).

That is not me pronouncing gospel, but me just setting out my understanding.

... But double brood 14*12 ?? The colony would need to be hopelessly honey-bound to require that (which is a hive management issue).

Nice brood pattern, but even when, later in the season, the brood really is wall to wall (and it will be), the single brood box will be more than sufficient.

There'll be other 14*12 guys with different views, and I'd keen to know what these are and why!

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Is it that difficult. Surely you only need a double BROOD box, if she is filling a single BROOD box with brood. Honey is better in the honey supers.

drex said:

Is it that difficult. Surely you only need a double BROOD box, if she is filling a single BROOD box with brood. Honey is better in the honey supers.

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You've quite a few years of experience so it's probably not that difficult for you. I have been wondering recently what factors may cause a beekeeper to determine whether to add a brood box or instead just add a super, so I'm keeping my eye on this thread.

I'm running standard nationals and I have one colony with a bought-in GM queen so I'm hoping this thread will help me understand which way to go.

Japey Edge said:

You've quite a few years of experience so it's probably not that difficult for you. I have been wondering recently what factors may cause a beekeeper to determine whether to add a brood box or instead just add a super, so I'm keeping my eye on this thread.

I'm running standard nationals and I have one colony with a bought-in GM queen so I'm hoping this thread will help me understand which way to go.

Click to expand...

You have to assess the brood space. Ensure there is sufficient room for the queen to lay in. If the brood box is rammed with brood then she won't be able to lay more eggs. If there's a lot of honey in the brood box then add a super and bruise the stores; the bees will move the honey into the super and free up space for the queen to lay in. It's a judgement call you have to make.

All I would remind you is that if the queen lays 1000 eggs in a day then 1000 bees are emerging in a day too. There reaches a point when the queen can't fill the available spaces. That is the secret. Knowing when the queen has just enough roo without giving them so much they can't cope with it. You need enough cells to accommodate the time between the queen laying maximum eggs times the time it takes for them to emerge as bees! The hive won't just grow till it bursts!

E

A lot of activity happens in the brood nest or at the periphery of it i.e. in the brood box. Recruitment, dancing, unloading by receiver bees, off loading of pollen, patrolling nurse bees feeding larvae, queen and messenger bees spreading pheromones and bees just need room to sit, rest and sleep. A second brood box alleviate congestion in this regard. Congested bees swarm.

I had a think - the 'why and what' needs to be 'balanced' against the size of box used, the fecundity of the bees, the abundance of forage and your desired outcomes – oh yes and the weather of course.
One consideration why might be that different races and strains are more or are less fecund; and may have a higher or a lower propensity to swarm than others – so know your bees.
Another is that in the spring as brood rearing peaks; 4-6 weeks(ish) before a main flow over crowding in the brood box can be a cause of swarming - they need additional space. I put a drawn super on in early April so that the bees can move nectar or honey up to that super out of the brood box if they need to. Saves some manipulations the brood frames. If that does not provide them adequate space then a second brood box may well be needed – so know your flora/forage and flow times.

The simple point I was trying to make, that several replies have referred to, is that a brood box is for brood, not for an excess of stores or bees etc. We have supers for that.

Extract from a recently released book:

Peter: Generally, Steve, if they have a honey arc on the top of the brood frame they probably have a box of about the right size and you just super above it.

Steve: If they see there’s honey above their heads how will they find out that there’s more space above that for storing more?

Peter: They find out, don’t worry about that. If you had a standard National brood box you often won’t find a honey arc because it’s wall to wall brood, every cell right to the outside.

Steve: Right.

Peter: When they get to that stage, if you’ve got a nice prolific queen and she’s
laying up every cell, there’s only one thing you need to give them – another brood box on top. Not a super; a brood chamber. If she’s a less prolific queen and you have got the honey arc then you don’t need another brood box because she isn’t going to go up there, you need to put shallows up there. Even when they are five supers high they find the space; they are up there filling the top box.

Now we are talking....Buckfast queens for sure.
These weren't quite wall to wall but not far off it, taken last week in the warm weather.

drex said:

The simple point I was trying to make, that several replies have referred to, is that a brood box is for brood, not for an excess of stores or bees etc. We have supers for that.

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I use one size box - Langstroth deep (used for brood and supers). It makes things much simpler if they're interchangeable.

When a queen is laying wall to wall you can expect the colony to stuff the combs above in the super with loads of pollen.