Amm

Julia Swan said:

Most beekeepers in Wales keep Amm?

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No. A lot of beekeepers in Wales claim they keep Amm, but without the DNA analysis to back up the assumptions it's all hearsay or wishful thinking.
Although from reports nothing wrong with the "local mongrels" bees they do keep.

Hivemaker. said:

Seems perfectly clear to me... and the small paragraph immediately underneath should explain it for those that find it unclear.

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It's also perfectly clear that any discussion of Amm is immediately jumped on by those who for some strange reason, feel duty bound to pour scorn on the subject.

Julia Swan said:

Wow. Thank you for all the comments.

Soooooo….. am I right in thinking Amm is a breed of bee?

Amm is native to Wales?

Most beekeepers in Wales keep Amm?

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Hello Julia,

Amm is our indigenous sub species of honey bee, it is native to the British Isles.
For some reason there are those who love to hate it and/or claim it no longer exists.
They are lovely black bees.

Beefriendly said:

No. A lot of beekeepers in Wales claim they keep Amm, but without the DNA analysis to back up the assumptions it's all hearsay or wishful thinking.
Although from reports nothing wrong with the "local mongrels" bees they do keep.

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Depends what you call Amm, it's certainly the biggest influence in the background drone population and most "local mongrels" as you'd have it are over 80% Amm DNA in areas not flooded with constant imports = the majority of Wales.
There was a study done on the subject (by Catherine Thomson iirc) and nation wide she proved all areas had an Amm majority constituents of DNA in their feral population , unfortunately I don't seem to recall much of her data was gathered in Wales. This is all from a presentation I heard years ago without taking notes so feel free to correct me or link to the original paper if it's out there. I'll have a Google myself.
To say it's "hearsay and wishful thinking" is merely ignorant trolling imo, anybody who actively breeds for Amm in areas with high Amm background drones is likely to be within the parameters of what's considered pure, we'll soon know for several groups in Wales when the dna microsatelite analysis results come in for the work being done at Bangor university.
For anyone who's interested I've been quoted 100€ as a price for sampling single colonies, I'm sure this would come down if there were large numbers to be sampled.(apigentetics)

Swarm said:

It's also perfectly clear that any discussion of Amm is immediately jumped on by those who for some strange reason, feel duty bound to pour scorn on the subject.

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Hold on a minute. If people read "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding", what are they to think?
OK. Sure...it's in the "small print" that it's intended for Amm, but, what about the rest of us who do real breeding and real improvement rather than just a spot of queen rearing for conservation? It all seems a bit one-sided to me.

Also....if Amm enthisiasts have their own area, why do they post provocative statements in the main forum?

B+. said:

Hold on a minute. If people read "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding", what are they to think?
OK. Sure...it's in the "small print" that it's intended for Amm, but, what about the rest of us who do real breeding and real improvement rather than just a spot of queen rearing for conservation? It all seems a bit one-sided to me.

Also....if Amm enthisiasts have their own area, why do they post provocative statements in the main forum?

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The first part was already explained by HM, it speaks for itself.
Posts in the wrong forum can be moved to the correct one.

B+. said:

Hold on a minute. If people read "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding", what are they to think?
OK. Sure...it's in the "small print" that it's intended for Amm, but, what about the rest of us who do real breeding and real improvement rather than just a spot of queen rearing for conservation? It all seems a bit one-sided to me.

Also....if Amm enthisiasts have their own area, why do they post provocative statements in the main forum?

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Paul... I do not understand it either.

I have kept bees of all types... even ( I was assured!!) had some Starlight Hybrids once in Croydon.

I can see your fascination for Carnica, and why others strive to keep Buckfast lines going.... I still have my NZ Italian line ( probably introgressed with Buckfasts!! by now)

I work with Amm.. the Cornish varient.

What is the problem???

Cheers said:

What is the problem???

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Quite simple: Amm enthusiasts (yourself included) seem to want to control the whole site. Every time someone disagrees with an exaggerated claim, they cry wolf.

B+. said:

what about the rest of us who do real breeding and real improvement rather than just a spot of queen rearing for conservation?

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Are you aware of what a conceited cockerel you come across as ?

mbc said:

Are you aware of what a conceited cockerel you come across as ?

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sticks and stones.

My point was that the name "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding" implies it is open to anyone who conducts those activities. Yet Amm enthusiasts claim it as their own. There are people, like me (and others), who practice bee improvement but you want to silence us. That sort of censorship won't work.

B+. said:

sticks and stones.

My point was that the name "Bee Improvement and Bee Breeding" implies it is open to anyone who conducts those activities. Yet Amm enthusiasts claim it as their own. There are people, like me (and others), who practice bee improvement but you want to silence us. That sort of censorship won't work.

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No silencing or censorship I'm aware of, have you tried some self awareness?

mbc said:

No silencing or censorship I'm aware of, have you tried some self awareness?

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That's about your style...insults.
I remember when I used to respect what you said. What happened?

Seems clear that a forum for bee breeding excluding discussion of Amm is required( i dont imagine breeders of other subspecies will mind sharing a section). Id certainly never noticed the Amm only aspect of the section before and i imagine it will be a lot less active when so many serious contributors leave( other than to counter the comical exaggerations of the "locals" of course).

SDM said:

Seems clear that a forum for bee breeding excluding discussion of Amm is required( i dont imagine breeders of other subspecies will mind sharing a section). Id certainly never noticed the Amm only aspect of the section before and i imagine it will be a lot less active when so many serious contributors leave( other than to counter the comical exaggerations of the "locals" of course).

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Racism springs to mind..... how does anyone with an ounce of common sense expect the moderators to police it on the Beekeeping Forum?

Cheers said:

Racism springs to mind.

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You talk about it as though it's a bad thing. After all, isn't that what we're about? You, with your Amm. Me, with my Amc. They're both separated on racial grounds. I go one step further, and I'm not ashamed to say it: I don't breed just any carnica. I only breed carnica from the BeeBreed population that has been selectively bred for many generations. If it's a case of "survival of the fittest", I want the very fittest.
Now, be honest, isn't there a little racism in all of us?

B+. said:

You talk about it as though it's a bad thing. After all, isn't that what we're about? You, with your Amm. Me, with my Amc. They're both separated on racial grounds. I go one step further, and I'm not ashamed to say it: I don't breed just any carnica. I only breed carnica from the BeeBreed population that has been selectively bred for many generations. If it's a case of "survival of the fittest", I want the very fittest.
Now, be honest, isn't there a little racism in all of us?

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That depends, do you work with Carnica because you believe they are inherently superior to other races ?
I reckon not. Others im not so sure( not even sure if they believe it)

Cheers said:

Racism springs to mind..... how does anyone with an ounce of common sense expect the moderators to police it on the Beekeeping Forum?

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That apparently is where were at since we've been made aware the section is currently for Amm only.
In your defence. I dont include you amongst the "zealots" despite a clear preference for your chosen Cornish natives, i find you refreshingly reasonable in 1 to 1 discussions.

SDM said:

That depends, do you work with Carnica because you believe they are inherently superior to other races ?
I reckon not. Others im not so sure( not even sure if they believe it)

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It's very kind of you to answer your own question but, please allow me to answer for myself.
In fact, I have explained the painful circumstances that led to my choice of carnica before. For me, there could be no other choice. It had to be a docile bee or no bee at all. The choice lay between carnica or Buckfast. I have also explained my experience with BIBBA and how aggressive they became when I voiced concerns about the non-availability of Amm for serious breeding work (similar to the aggression I see demonstrated in this forum). Now, I had Buckfast from both Brother Adam and Peter Donovan. They were nice, productive bees...but..they were dependent on II for propagation. They became aggressive in the first, and subsequent, generation of open mating. This told me that they were inherently unstable, so I chose carnica.
You might ask "What is the difference"? Well, contrary to the comments about interaction between M and C group being aggressive, I find them relatively docile, at least compared to the local mongrel (perhaps because the mother of the F1 is carnica and not mellifera). You might say I am biased, but, would you believe the biggest beekeeper in the country? ITLD has queens from my stock (https://twitter.com/calluna4u/status/973582373995630592 ) and I invite him to state publicly what he thought. His J5 line was second generation...something that might be expected to throw up aggression, if there was any to be found.
That is not the only reason though. You asked if I thought they were superior. In fact, I do. The bees I work with now are far superior to anything I have ever had.

B+. said:

There are people, like me (and others), who practice bee improvement but you want to silence us.

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Only because you insist on shouting over anyone who doesn't have your obsessiveness.

jenkinsbrynmair said:

Only because you insist on shouting over anyone who doesn't have your obsessiveness.

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Shout? I doubt you would hear me even if I did.
If I am obsessed by bee improvement, don't you think that obsession is justified? Would you keep quiet? I doubt it.