Winter feeding.

[bobthecob]

Err Then why do my mating nucs full of stores eat all their fondant?
And my nucs as well?

They stuff everywhere with fondant...As for not robbing fondant, 12 mini nucs last year and various nucs over the years suggest it is fable (again).

Obviously your nucs eat their fondant - that's what you give it to them for.

But to claim that fondant triggers as much robbing and backfilling as syrup is nonsense, however many people hit the "Like" button.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Surely backfilling is part of normal winter prep? Where else are the bees going to put their stores but where the brood nest used to be as it shrinks?

 

[bobthecob]

Surely backfilling is part of normal winter prep?

We are into semantics now. Backfilling, in this context, is generally used to describe the undesirable choking off of a queen's ability to lay as many winter bees as she wants to, as the workers put a glut of syrup absolutely anywhere they can. But sure, if you want to define backfilling as the normal brood nest shrinking as winter nears, and the space being used for stores instead, fine.

 

[Erichalfbee]

We are into semantics now. Backfilling, in this context, is generally used to describe the undesirable choking off of a queen's ability to lay as many winter bees as she wants to, as the workers put a glut of syrup absolutely anywhere they can. But sure, if you want to define backfilling as the normal brood nest shrinking as winter nears, and the space being used for stores instead, fine.

Don’t know. I’ve always used the term, backfilling. Obviously bees backfilling in summer as they run out of space is not the same. Happy to be corrected.

 

[fiat500bee]

Another one for the beekeeping myths and magic room

Yes, I've only been beekeeping for a few months and I can say it's pretty obvious that if there is any sugar solution or nectar that they can easily get their teeth into, they will be scoffing it until it's gone and will then be open to finding or accepting any amount more....they're little pigs really.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We are into semantics now. Backfilling, in this context, is generally used to describe the undesirable choking off of a queen's ability to lay as many winter bees

never heard backfilling used 'in that context'
But The answer to 'unneccessary' backfilling is obvious - poor colony management by winter feeding a lot too early

 

[Erichalfbee]

never heard backfilling used 'in that context'

Oh well. I’ve learned something today.

 

[Wingy]

I will be looking at taking my final supers off this next week or so when the weather is better. I then replace a super of spun and un capped frames above the QX over double brood boxes for them to re fill for them selves. HB going very strong for now & lots of ivy still to come. Final winter prep is to reduce to one brood box by removing stores and putting brood into 1 box, remove QX, check super is full and vape for varroa, done.
Periodically check for stores over winter and have fondant to hand if needed, usually it’s not needed

 

[Swarm]

Oh well. I’ve learned something today.

Winter preps as you rightly said, is backfilling and for the very reason you described. In this context, the wrong terminology was used instead of more recognised terms such as clogging.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Winter preps as you rightly said, is backfilling and for the very reason you described. In this context, the wrong terminology was used instead of more recognised terms such as clogging.

It’s a minefield and not just a minefield of semantics.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Backfilling, in this context, is generally used to describe the undesirable choking off of a queen's ability to lay as many winter bees as she wants to, as the workers put a glut of syrup absolutely anywhere they can.

No: a consequence of backfilling may be an undesirable reduction in laying space (though the queen's ability is not impaired) but backfilling is the filling of upper combs with nectar as the nest contracts downwards. This is seen best when using multiple boxes and no QX and usually starts during the main flow. True, in one small box the brood nest itself will become clogged, but in that instance the beekeeper has it wrong, and not the bees.

Clogging? Yes, South Wales is known for clogging, Steve, but it's nothing to do with beekeeping: in this short film there are several interesting tools, a horse, an old boy chopping wood, no motorised vehicles and a group of kids clogging. (Pretty rapidly I found a 1942 film of hedge laying in which an old boy with several interesting tools smokes a pipe continually while doing a proper day's work, at which point bed beckoned).

 

[Swarm]

Do people actually click on unexplained links posted by others?
Just wondering because I don;t understand why you would go to all that bother.
I'm sure there are people who have seen things become clogged, Eric and heard of things becoming clogged, an object clogging something else.
Obviously, you haven't.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I never considered one simple word, backfilling, could cause so much consternation

 

[ericbeaumont]

I never considered one simple word, backfilling, could cause so much consternation

 

[ericbeaumont]

Obviously, you haven't.

Perhaps leaves in a drain, or a road with traffic, or an artery, but no, not in relation to combs in a hive. Backfilling describes the story far better - what was once brood space is now nectar space due to contraction of the nest - but clogging only tells us the consequence of backfilling.

 

[fiat500bee]

I never considered one simple word, backfilling, could cause so much consternation

Technically, "backfilling" would be replacing something taken out of the cell with that same "something". I think that it's a good descriptor for what bees are doing when they re-purpose cells such as by putting nectar in ex-brood cells; they are working back through the hive and filling as they go. (I see that has been said more eloquently by others).

 

[polymath]

Sorry I think I have to disagree with many responses here.
The response should be to understand better how much honey a colony needs to survive through winter. If you have local mongrel, Buckfast or an English Black Bee then it is generally reckoned you should be okay with about 40lb of stores. If you have the Italian Bees - yellow then you may need more as they can be quite prolific.

So you need to check how much stores are in your hive, now a full standard national brood frame, covered both sides is about 5lb, a super national frame about 3lb of honey. So how do you keep your bees, single national, double national, brood and half, Langstroth, 14 x 12 there are many variations. I personal keep my bees generally on double national, but only 8 frames to a box on the basis that bees like naturally to go up and down not side to side – that is way most trees grow. So I look to ensure my bees have 8 frames of stores leaving the queen 8 frames to lay in and in spring if need be I can give them more frames.

As for do you need to leave all honey it is generally agreed that honey does contain vitamins and minerals that either bought syrup or sugar mixed yourself does not have. However, it is also generally agreed that if you leave about 50/50 in a hive to go through winter that also works well. Why, well I will happily pay for Sugar for my bees, but then I sell my honey at £8 a pound so it far cheaper for me to give my bees some sugar to last through winter.

So yes, once the supers come off which I have done will feed until such time as the hive has 40lb of stores in it. With Ivy, a little Heather and Himalayan Balsam in my area still coming in they will pull in a mixture of my syrup and local Nectar. In December they get a pack of fondant when they are vaporized. Why well again the cost of fondant is low v what a new colony of bees cost so better to be safe and just leave them with it.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Oh well. I’ve learned something today.

Every day is a school day....

 

[Murox]

I never considered one simple word, backfilling, could cause so much consternation

I am not surprised, after all this is a beekeepers forum, We all know what we are like.....................lots of descriptive phrases spring to mind.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you have local mongrel, Buckfast or an English Black Bee then it is generally reckoned you should be okay with about 40lb of stores. If you have the Italian Bees - yellow then you may need more as they can be quite prolific.

I aim for about 40lb but always end up pulling one or two frames of stores out in the spring.
I’ve never kept Italian bees though.