Winter cluster size - dependant on summer colony size?

[barshambees]

Just wondering, as the title suggests....Does the eventual winter cluster size and hence number of bees depend on how big the colony was in the summer?

Does a colony that takes up two brood boxes in early summer have the same number of bees in midwinter as one that takes up only one brood box?

And following - will a large summer brood need more stores for the winter than a smaller one?

Will a nuc on say 6 frames, have the same number of bees at the start of spring have the same number of bees and same start as what was a full colony the previous summer?

Just curious.......

 

[Finman]

.winter cluster is same size as brood area in late summer before the colony stops brood rearing.

The last bees will be in the cluster, because those bees, which feed larvae, are not able to over Winter.

So if you have 10 frames of brood, the colony needs one box for Winter.
If colony has 12-15 frames brood, it needs two or one and half box..

Need of Winter food varies. Same size of cluster may consume douple amount of good. Brooding during Winter consumes lots of stores.
If you use sugar, cost I not much.

When I have 6 boxes of bees in the middle of summer, it tells that queen is a good layer. But it does not tell, how many brood frame hive has in last brood cycle.


..

 

[Finman]

Will a nuc on say 6 frames, have the same number of bees at the start of spring have the same number of bees and same start as what was a full colony the previous summer?

Just curious.......

I have just now a nuc, which had 5 frames over winter a month ago. Now the colony has 10 frames full of brood. The queen seems to be a good layer and it will lay at least 15 frames. Next winter it will have 1 or 2 langstroth boxes, but now I cannot say, what will have in August.

If queen does not lay 15 frames, I change it.

.

.

 

[user 6228]

How big the colony needs to be is a matter of debate.
In 1982 the average size in germany was 1.7 kg (southwick)
In 1975 the recommended size in U.S. was 4kg (hive and the honeybee).
the amount of bees needed and the thermal resistance of the hive are linked

 

[barshambees]

I think what I am trying to work out is would a full colony and a nuc have the same number of bees, on average, in the middle of winter.

ie. When numbers are reduced naturally as the go into winter, does a big colony end up with the queen and roughly the same numbers of workers as a smaller colony.

Or does a 6 frame nuc need less stores than a previously full colony in the winter months...... If you see what I mean

And when the queen starts laying again, will the previously full colony have a quicker and better start than the nuc?

 

[Dishmop]

.winter cluster is same size as brood area in late summer before the colony stops brood rearing.

The last bees will be in the cluster, because those bees, which feed larvae, are not able to over Winter.

So if you have 10 frames of brood, the colony needs one box for Winter.
If colony has 12-15 frames brood, it needs two or one and half box..

Need of Winter food varies. Same size of cluster may consume douple amount of good. Brooding during Winter consumes lots of stores.
If you use sugar, cost I not much.

When I have 6 boxes of bees in the middle of summer, it tells that queen is a good layer. But it does not tell, how many brood frame hive has in last brood cycle.


..

What happens if you have five brood boxes and three of them are full of frames of brood and bees at end season? and when do your last bees emerge before winter?

 

[Finman]

What happens if you have five brood boxes and three of them are full of frames of brood and bees at end season? and when do your last bees emerge before winter?

What happens.... That much brood?

 

[Goran]

I think what I am trying to work out is would a full colony and a nuc have the same number of bees, on average, in the middle of winter.

ie. When numbers are reduced naturally as the go into winter, does a big colony end up with the queen and roughly the same numbers of workers as a smaller colony.

Or does a 6 frame nuc need less stores than a previously full colony in the winter months...... If you see what I mean

And when the queen starts laying again, will the previously full colony have a quicker and better start than the nuc?

Generally always bigger colony better. Maybe overall consumption is higher but eaten stores "per bee" is less then in small colony. And bees in bigger colonies due to their number all tasks do faster, easier, more efficient, with less used energy, better overwinter. That way stay more fit to make thunders in spring..
In early spring you will need rapid increase of brood, but what size of brood can be cared by cup of bees..
I can overwinter nuc size colonies but in my beekeeping totally pointless. Cause I want maximum of yields per unit, not statistical number.

Also about winter bees. I avoid to do emergency or any feed when most of winter bees already emerged. I do that before to summer bees prepare the colony for winter. I like to winter bees are bored before winter.
Soon when lime is over will estimate if there is some forage interesting for me. If not and especcially if start dearth of flow, I need to start stimulative feed ( 2,5dcl of syrup) to our queens doesn't reduce rapidly brooding ( carnies are known for such), if I neglect that colonies will be weaker than acceptable. They will overwinter, but no results in spring forage which is main forage fo me ( May - black locust)..

 

[Finman]

.
If you have 6 frame nuc in late summer, it is able to do 4 frames brood, before it stops brood rearing.

A big hive can do 15 frames.

So big hive has 4 times more bees in winter cluster than that nuc.

When spring comes, big hive can nurse 4 times more brood at same time as that nuc.

When at the beginning of summer nuc hive has 2 boxes brood, and no honey, the big hive has allready 20-40 kg honey.

**********

In my climate big hive has at the beginning of May 8 frames brood. Those brood will be foragers six weeks later, at 20.6. , when main yield starts and spring rape and raspberry starts blooming, It means that the hive has 2 boxes foragers.

At same time 6 frame hive is at same situation 20.6. as big hive 6 weeks earlier. That hive has so much foragers that they can feed 2 box of brood. No surplus then.

 

[Dishmop]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dishmop View Post
What happens if you have five brood boxes and three of them are full of frames of brood and bees at end season? and when do your last bees emerge before winter?

What happens.... That much brood?

yeh..what happens....

 

[Finman]

yeh..what happens....

yeh.. what!

 

[Dishmop]

yeh.. what!

I guess you dont know the answer then,,

 

[Finman]

I guess you dont know the answer then,,

You just pile 6 hives together before winter that you get 3 boxed brood. Then look what happens.


.

 

[Dishmop]

You just pile 6 hives together before winter that you get 3 boxed brood. Then look what happens.


.

thats not what I asked. I didnt say hives I said boxes.

 

[Finman]

thats not what I asked. I didnt say hives I said boxes.

You said brood boxes full of brood. Not boxes.

But boxes is right Word because mites have eaten all your brood before Winter.

Yes. Boxes is right. Not hives.

Right answer is what happens: Mites will eate before winter your 30 frames full of brood.

 

[barshambees]

Ask a simple question and it all turns a bit weird

I have inadvertantly lit the blue touch paper. Sorry about that!

 

[Thymallus]

Simple answer is no, your nuc will have a much smaller number of winter bees and generally a smaller cluster. But cluster size depends on temperature inside hive.
I've found, where I live, I cannot get a wooden nuc with bees through the winter as too cold and damp for too long, Poly nucs work fine and yet to lose one.

 

[barshambees]

Thank you Thymallus. Just what I needed to know.

 

[Finman]

Ask a simple question and it all turns a bit weird

I have inadvertantly lit the blue touch paper. Sorry about that!

It is only Dishmop's habit to show his frienship to foreign inhabitants.
I take it as intelligent humour. However it is better humour than the Welsh .
We boath are retired and our brains need intellectual stimulation between other people. HUman is a social animal.

 

[maddydog]

It is only Dishmop's habit to show his frienship to foreign inhabitants.
I take it as intelligent humour. However it is better humour than the Welsh .
We boath are retired and our brains need intellectual stimulation between other people. HUman is a social animal.

Seems to me that the average internet human is anti-social!