Winter bees

[oliver90owner]

I don’t look. I leave them in peace as far as possible for the winter season. Unnecessary interference does them no good, as I see it.’

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don’t look either. I see them flying in spring.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have none in any of ours.

Have you looked? I bet you have a few out of all those colonies.

 

[elainemary]

That's an excellent interpretation; basically, it means there probably isn't a point at which all bees produced are fully winterised and neither will there be an exact point at which they are all produced as the regular variety.

The individual bee that becomes a winter bee becomes a ‘regular’ bee themselves in the spring.

As winter bees feed the brood, their physiology changes and their hormones change too. The substance I mentioned Vitellogenin, is used up and this triggers further hormone changes to make a new substance called Juvenille hormone. This works in reverse to what you’d expect from the name - it actually makes them physiologically older and they turn into a ‘regular’ forager bee, driven by colony needs in the spring. They stop hive duties and spend the last few weeks of their lives collecting pollen and nectar, similar to if they’d emerged as a regular bee in the spring who do a few house duties then progress to foraging before eventual death.

I agree with others that the term winter bee and regular bee can be confusing as you imagine these are 2 completely different types of bee. My understanding is there’s only one female worker bee and her physiology just changes according to the needs of the colony.

Another long answer, to help understanding for those interested in learning more.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Have you looked? I bet you have a few out of all those colonies.

I haven't looked no, I couldn't see any when I trickled and added fondant but I didn't pull frames out and each colony only takes seconds to do, you don't want to be hanging around.

 

[Do224]

Some really interesting and well explained replies.

I suppose my main reason for asking was to try and get my head around autumn feeding....am I right in thinking there is a very real risk of impeding the ‘winter bee’ production if you feed at the wrong time?

Lots of people seem to whack on about 14 litres of 2:1 syrup at the start of October. Am I right in thinking this means the ‘winter bees’ have (usually!) emerged by then? Because that amount of syrup would jam up the whole BB pretty quick and stop the queen in her tracks wouldn’t it?

 

[elainemary]

Some really interesting and well explained replies.

I suppose my main reason for asking was to try and get my head around autumn feeding....am I right in thinking there is a very real risk of impeding the ‘winter bee’ production if you feed at the wrong time?

Lots of people seem to whack on about 14 litres of 2:1 syrup at the start of October. Am I right in thinking this means the ‘winter bees’ have (usually!) emerged by then? Because that amount of syrup would jam up the whole BB pretty quick and stop the queen in her tracks wouldn’t it?

It depends on where in the country you are and the type of bee you keep. You’re in Cumbria so it’s likely your local environment means your queen will stop laying earlier than say beekeepers down south. Also depends on the type of bee you have - again if just locally adapted bees I’d say the same, she’ll ease up laying from end of august through September and maybe your winter bees will be produced by end of September. Can’t say for sure these things come with experience of reading your bees

Think about when your nectar flow ends, ask your local beekeepers what they do, then ask their advice when’s the best time to start feeding and how they do it.

Personally living in the south Pennines, my major flow ends September but I take surplus honey off end August. I leave a full super for the bees and what they collect after that is also for them as I start treating end of august.

I then do ‘top up’ feeding end of September. This gives my queens some space to keep laying winter bees throughout September. I give them a feed end of September to tie in with my last inspection when I assess the stores they have and I make sure they have around 18kg stores by end of October.

I then do nothing except take any varroa strips out and monitor my hive weights through the winter. I’ve found from experience I don’t need to add any fondant and my bees have stores left over in spring. I take any excess stores out and use to make Nucs giving queens room to lay.

However this is describing my bees and my local climate. As I’ve said speak to your local beekeepers and you will learn over the next 2-3 seasons what works best. Enjoy it, learning is fun!

 

[Erichalfbee]

You want the brood jammed with stores
I’m in wales. I aim for around 5 or 6 14x12 frames full of food which usually goes on mid September

 

[Murox]

I don’t look either. I see them flying in spring.

Snap. And sometimes during an early season inspection there seems to be a few in the stronger colonies that must have come through winter.

 

[mbc]

The seasonal pattern here is often a brood break of almost no laying from the end of July all the way through to the ivy flowering, end of September through to the first weeks of November when the queens lay up a good few slabs of brood on the ivy pollen and nectar. I always imagined the majority of the bees I see in my hives in the spring before the crossover of new bees are from these autumn slabs of brood.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Some really interesting and well explained replies.

I suppose my main reason for asking was to try and get my head around autumn feeding....am I right in thinking there is a very real risk of impeding the ‘winter bee’ production if you feed at the wrong time?

Lots of people seem to whack on about 14 litres of 2:1 syrup at the start of October. Am I right in thinking this means the ‘winter bees’ have (usually!) emerged by then? Because that amount of syrup would jam up the whole BB pretty quick and stop the queen in her tracks wouldn’t it?

Feeding in the autumn is a balancing act not just feeding untill they stop taking it, you need to weigh colonys and feed accordingly there's a few threads on this with convertion from granulated sugar to syrup to how much per litre is converted into stores.
I've seen colonys completely demolish 12.5 kgs of fondant in a week.

Just to add for me and quite a few beekeepers we wait to see how the ivy flows are because some years like 2020 I didn't have to feed because the ivy flow was brilliant, it wasn't so bad this last autumn but I had to feed more each autumn is different weather/flow so you have to work with it.

In my first season I fed 30kgs of sugar as syrup to a colony and they didn't come out of winter the best so balancing your feeding is key imo.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you need to weigh colonys and feed accordingly

Really? I've never found that.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Really? I've never found that.

Maybe I've an ocd and don't like to waist feed for the sake of it.
Plus you can over feed.
We've had this conversation before on more than one occasion.

 

[Do224]

The seasonal pattern here is often a brood break of almost no laying from the end of July all the way through to the ivy flowering, end of September through to the first weeks of November when the queens lay up a good few slabs of brood on the ivy pollen and nectar. I always imagined the majority of the bees I see in my hives in the spring before the crossover of new bees are from these autumn slabs of brood.

That’s interesting, I didn’t realise there would be a brood break from the end of July all the way up until she lays the winter bees in November...or have I misunderstood what you’re saying?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Good idea for a beginner going through their first and second winter to weigh p

That’s interesting, I didn’t realise there would be a brood break from the end of July all the way up until she lays the winter bees in November...or have I misunderstood what you’re saying?

it depends where you are. If there is no forage and no protein income then queen will stop laying.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As Dani says - it depends where you are. With me I often get broodless colonies from mid August on with them brooding again in earnest come October.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe I've an ocd and don't like to waist feed for the sake of it.
Plus you can over feed.
We've had this conversation before on more than one occasion.

and keep getting strange answers. All the years I've kept bees I've never encountered 'over feeding' in a colony. Maybe you need to look at the bees you keep?
And how is feed 'wasted' any left in the spring can be taken off and the frames used to feed nucs - thus saving the faff and the 'waste' of feeding them syrup.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I regularly take frames out in the spring. Keep them for nucs or put them back when the bees need them.

 

[Curly green finger's]

and keep getting strange answers. All the years I've kept bees I've never encountered 'over feeding' in a colony. Maybe you need to look at the bees you keep?
And how is feed 'wasted' any left in the spring can be taken off and the frames used to feed nucs - thus saving the faff and the 'waste' of feeding them syrup.

Fair point, and I to remove stores sometimes in the spring to allow space for build up not last year.
Im not the only one on here that just feeds a certain amount to get them somewhere near the weight they require for winter.
Some colonys aren't the same some will keep taking it down even if they don't need it, if I can save on feeding 50 colonys x amount of syrup or fondant in the autumn surely that's a benefit to my pocket if the bees don't need it surely theres a benefit to the bees also?

Each season is different for forage, each spring build up happens not necessarily at the same time it's a fair balancing act.
Just take this last spring 2021 for example we had colonys down to just spoon fulls of stores on frames so I fed small amounts at the start of May three days later the weather picked up and there was nectar a plenty coming in.
Autumn feeding was nothing much because the ivy flow was brilliant, this last autumn it was a lot later and not so good I fed more in October than previous.
If I just had two colonys I would probably do things a little different.
I wonder how @mbc or @Hedgerow Honey feed in the autumn ad- lib untill they don't take anymore?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wonder how @mbc or @Hedgerow Honey feed in the autumn ad- lib untill they don't take anymore?

I wonder if they weigh their hives though.