Will my bees kill an introduced queen?

[Gmm243]

Morning all,this is my first post here and already looking for advice.
On 7th May I came home from work to find a lot of dead bees outside a hive at my house.I only have one hive there but others elsewhere. I had inspected the hives the previous evening and there was nothing amiss.I opened the hive and all bees under the QE were dead,there were some bees alive in the super but I estimate about 80% of the hive died. A lot of the bees were in the comb I sent a sample away for inspection but they could only conclude that they did not died of starvation or disease and could only conclude that a sudden death could be attributed to poisoning.This was a strong hive and they were making honey from a huge crop of Dandelions but this was sprayed the same day so I suspect this was the cause .
There seemed to be enough bees in the hive to try and keep going with them but I have tried to drop in frames with day old eggs on about 5 occasions since but even though they have drawn out queen cells there does not seem to be a queen in the hive.There has been no brood or eggs seen during any of our inspections yet the strange thing is that the hive remains strong and are making honey.Possibly due to the capped brood that was dropped in with the eggs?My Dad has kept bees for over 65 years and can not understand it.
So finally,my question is that I don't want to loose this colony and as all attempts with day old eggs have failed would introducing a new queen be an answer or are they without a queen for so long now that they would kill her even though it is a form of suicide for the colony.I have a fairly strong swarm I caught 3 weeks ago and could try to unite both but am reluctant to in case they would kill what seems to be a very strong laying young queen.

Sorry for the very long winded post,any advice gratefully received.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You say they have drawn out QCs - what did you do then? Dates/timescale would also help

 

[user 819]

16 days for a Q to emerge from an egg, then several days to mature and another 3 - 4 weeks window to mate and start laying.
As JBM has said more times/dates needed of when QC's were made and when/if one emerged.

 

[Gmm243]

Hi,they drew out queen cells on only one of the frames of eggs we put in the hive (Have placed a frame with eggs into the hive on 5 occasions).On this last attempt they drew out 9 queen cells,we took 3 of these off to put into another hive which had lost a queen and left the 6 remaining cells in the original hive.On the last two inspections there was no sign of any queen,no eggs,larvae or brood.
My father wanted to try once more to place eggs in the hive but this would be the 6th time we have done this with no success so I thought of buying a queen to introduce and hopefully keep the hive viable.What bothers me is the long time scale of being without a queen will I just be wasting my money as they would probably kill a new queen especially as they have had the chance to produce a new queen and have not done so.

 

[Ian123]

First pic of brood frame shows no stores and lots of bees head first in cells. I’ve never heard a sample being tested for starvation thathats a new 1 on me. My guess is the initial losses are down to starvation. Ian

 

[Gmm243]

Sorry,last frame with capped queen cells was observed on 23 June.On subsequent inspections all queen cells torn down.Last inspection last Sat where there aere no eggs etc observed.

 

[Gmm243]

First pic of brood frame shows no stores and lots of bees head first in cells. I’ve never heard a sample being tested for starvation thathats a new 1 on me. My guess is the initial losses are down to starvation. Ian

I would have thought the same but there is no way that the hive that was inspected on a Thursday night and had a almost full super of honey plus fondant on top all died of starvation at the one time and were dead or dying by late afternoon the following day. When I inspected the hive on the Thursday I observed no dead bees at all so I have to assume that it was a more sudden event than starvation.
I sent a sample of dead bees to the lab for inspection and they had a lengthy phone call with me after.One of the things they said was that there were no bees in the sample with empty stomachs therefore starvation could be ruled out.

 

[B+.]

The only thing worth adding to what has already been said is that bees usually reject alien queens if they have eggs/larvae of their own (sometimes even when they don't if it's not in a nectar flow). The presence of young larvae seems to be a determining factor.
How long ago was the last frame of eggs/larvae added?

 

[user 819]

Have to agree with Ian, starvation. There are just too many dead bees with heads stuck in cells in the pic, over 80% of cells without brood have bees head first inside.
For what ever reason the bees haven't accessed the stores above.

The floor is also a classic summer mass starvation scene.

 

[B+.]

Have to agree with Ian, starvation. There are just too many dead bees with heads stuck in cells in the pic, over 80% of cells without brood have bees head first inside.
For what ever reason the bees haven't accessed the stores above.

The floor is also a classic summer starvation scene.

Ohhhh Yes. I didn't look closely at the photos.
Where are you located? It would help if this was on your profile. Have you no nectar coming in there? You could feed a light syrup to keep them going.

 

[user 819]

Same here I hadn't looked at the pics enlarged firstly until Ian mentioned it.

 

[user 819]

I would have thought the same but there is no way that the hive that was inspected on a Thursday night and had a almost full super of honey plus fondant on top all died of starvation at the one time and were dead or dying by late afternoon the following day. When I inspected the hive on the Thursday I observed no dead bees at all so I have to assume that it was a more sudden event than starvation.

The die off can be instant and catastrophic, what appears to be a normal colony one day can be very different within 72hrs if no hard forage is available.

 

[Gmm243]

The bees died on 7th May,last frame of eggs introduced towards end of June with capped QC's observed on 23rd June.Since that no sign of a queen and as of last weekend no eggs or any other evidence of a laying queen or any queen to be exact.
With the cause of death put aside would anyone recommend putting an alien queen into this colony or is she likely to be killed?Is there anything else that I can do to prevent them dying out slowly if a queen can not be introduced and they have not produced a queen of their own from the day old eggs that have been introduced.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I bet you have a virgin queen, or one on the verge of laying in there, emerged from one of your test frames.
Introducing a queen (bought or acquired) into that hive is sending her to an almost inevitable death

 

[B+.]

The bees died on 7th May,last frame of eggs introduced towards end of June with capped QC's observed on 23rd June.Since that no sign of a queen and as of last weekend no eggs or any other evidence of a laying queen or any queen to be exact.
With the cause of death put aside would anyone recommend putting an alien queen into this colony or is she likely to be killed?Is there anything else that I can do to prevent them dying out slowly if a queen can not be introduced and they have not produced a queen of their own from the day old eggs that have been introduced.

If they are that hungry that they starve, putting a new queen in is like signing her death warrant. It won't work.
The best you can do is feed them then add a frame or two of sealed brood before adding the queen, ideally under a push-in cage as the bees are likely to be quite aggressive towards her

 

[Gmm243]

Thank you for all the replies and advice.I never thought a first post would bring so much interest!!
I hope that there is a virgin queen in the hive, it would be great to bring them back from inevitable death as they were a very productive hive before and even now are producing honey.They were a very calm quiet colony previous to the incident that killed them but then they got very cross,you could hardly go into the garden with them but in last few weeks they have calmed down significantly and I was even able to cut the grass around them without them coming near me last week so maybe that is a sign of promise.
I will inspect the hive at the weekend again and see what I can find.Will report back,hopefully with better news.

 

[Sutty]

You could unite them with a queenright colony to create a possiby two-queen hive (eg lower ?queenless brood box, QE, super, QE, upper queenright brood box) Newspaper to separate them with a few slits cut in it.
Then you can wait and see if you get a queen in the lower box.

 

[thorn]

The bees died on 7th May,last frame of eggs introduced towards end of June with capped QC's observed on 23rd June.Since that no sign of a queen and as of last weekend no eggs or any other evidence of a laying queen or any queen to be exact.

Is there any sign of a queen having emerged? Four weeks is not too long a time for you to have a virgin queen there, especially given the weather.

 

[oliver90owner]

… as they were a very productive hive before and even now are producing honey. …

Previous productivity went out of the window after the death of the first queen. Any new queen will not have the identical genetics.

The colony needs a new test frame to determine if the hive is actually Q-, before risking an introduced queen. If queen cells are drawn, remove that test frame to be sure nothing will develop from those queen cells. Introduction will clearly be a bit of a lottery.

A well developed capped queen cell (preferably a ‘ripe’ one) from another colony might be best in the circumstances. Uniting would be another simple alternative.

I will remain ambivalent re the initial losses. Some things do not ring true.

 

[Gmm243]

Is there any sign of a queen having emerged? Four weeks is not too long a time for you to have a virgin queen there, especially given the weather.

No sign of a queen having emerged but I will do an inspection on Sunday or Monday if it is a bit cooler.
I like the idea of uniting with a queen right colony but am fearful of losing the queen due to the initial colony having been without a queen for so long.I hived a swarm about a month ago and the queen is laying very well in that hive so coult try with them.My fear is that it will be bad enough to have to let one colony die out but do I risk uniting them with a strong queen right colony and run the risk of losing all if they kill the queen.
I suppose I will have to see what my next inspection turns up then make a decision after that.
Thank you for all the replies and advice.