Why are workers making new queen cells when the newly-emerged queen hasn't even started laying yet?

[The Riviera Kid]

Colony 1 has a 2012 queen who should be mated and laying by now. I found no trace of eggs etc. on today's inspection and I understand that the weather has mucked around with the usual way of things this year.

However, unlike the other two colonies that are rearing 2012 queens, the workers in colony 1 are making new queen cells. They're not "play" cells - they're proper full-blown ones.

There is plenty of honey and pollen and the bees (usually very tranquil) were as good as gold tonight (barely need smoke most of the time) so they seem to be queenright even though I didn't see her nor eggs etc.

Why would the workers be making queen cells before the new queen has even got going?

Is it just the weather? Both my other colonies are text book with no new queen cells to be seen.

 

[hiveabee]

I had a similar problem. I got a Nuc going. Queen, eggs , brood the full package.so I transferred them into a full sized hive. Checked them a week later and they seemed to be doing well. So I marked the queen. A week later no eggs no marked queen. just a load of sealed brood and a sealed queen cell. who know s what they are thinking so I have just left them to it. I may give them a look at weekend.

 

[protheroe]

i recently had a queen laying about 3 weeks in a nuc,really good brood pattern,yet they built 3 cells,maybe the bees knew something i didnt and were superceding.

 

[The Riviera Kid]

Yes, I could understand it if there were a few eggs in there. It would appear that they knew that something was up with the queen and were replacing her... but the cells were quite large (2 cm) but not an egg to be seen. I'll give them a week and see what's in there.

I can always move a frame of eggs in there and see what they do with that.

 

[dickbowyer]

Hiveabee

I had two newly laying queens disappear earlier this year out of three such hives. I suspect it was the marking that made them turn on the queen so have resolved to only mark once they have a good number of sealed frames of brood

 

[bobster]

I think I remember reading somewhere (maybe here) that the theory is bees make QCs "just in case" there is a problem with the queen.

Also sometimes in larger colonies if her scent or pheremone is not string then they get the idea that she may not be about and go for it.

I have a number of "play cups" in my colonies at the moment which have been built in the last few weeks. But no fully built QCs. In fact the colony with this years queen have torn down her QC!

Bobster

 

[oliver90owner]

Thinking about it, I don't suppose immediate supercedure is an impossibility.

Bees are not stupid. If the queen were defective in some way - that she could lay but never properly - they may make arrangements 'up-front' ready to change her at the earliest opportunity. Damaged leg or antenna may be examples of this.

This is, of course, only an idea - not a definitive answer to your post. Wait and see is the best way forward for you.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I had a similar problem. I got a Nuc going. Queen, eggs , brood the full package.so I transferred them into a full sized hive. Checked them a week later and they seemed to be doing well. So I marked the queen. A week later no eggs no marked queen. just a load of sealed brood and a sealed queen cell. who know s what they are thinking so I have just left them to it. I may give them a look at weekend.

Something to do with your marking technique or the paint you use?

 

[Hebeegeebee]

RK,

Is there an arc of stores above a space of polished cells - this is a good indication of there being a queen. If all the cells are filled with stores, then there is less likely to be a queen. A test frame should confirm.
Queencells being drawn may be an indication of a poor queen.

 

[Swarm]

With the year we've had so far, wettest April, coldest May, wettest June, perhaps the bees have just had a shovel full and are just 'hoping' for something, anything.

 

[Polyanwood]

I think on some courses they do not teach new beekeepers the difference between a charged queen cup and a play cell. Is this is what is happening here? Apologies for boring people....

Play cups are empty, dry uncharged queen cells. They might have an egg in them even, but they are dry. Play cups do not mean supersedure or swarming. You can just leave them.

Charged queen cups are wet, and as they develop when you look inside them you can see the creamy white royal jelly, and if you have good eyesight you can see the larva lying on the surface of the jelly. Wet queen cells are charged and do mean they are trying to replace the queen.

 

[djg]

Polyanwood,

Maybe, but to be fair to the OP, he does say :" the workers in colony 1 are making new queen cells. They're not "play" cells - they're proper full-blown ones."

Since he's been on this Forum for over two years, I'd be inclinded to believe that he meant what he said.

 

[protheroe]

Hiveabee

I had two newly laying queens disappear earlier this year out of three such hives. I suspect it was the marking that made them turn on the queen so have resolved to only mark once they have a good number of sealed frames of brood

last year i had 2 queens balled through marking too early ,this year i had 1 killed after laying for 3 weeks.i caged her for 3 days after they balled her but they still killed her.i wont be marking any more queens until they have been laying a couple of months,its really not worth the risk

 

[Polyanwood]

I have been out to see lots of beginners again this year who said either that they had no eggs or no queen or queen cells. Mostly, as usual all was well and they were worrying about nothing.

Lots of people seem to think that it is the shape of the play cup that is diagnostic. They do not look inside properly. They assume that if it has been drawn down more than from the initial acorn cup shape, then it must be charged. We must look inside. Perhaps OP did, perhaps not.

While I'm on the subject.....the other thing newbies are saying is that it is the colour of the cup that indicates whether it is old or new. They don't bother to look inside the dark old ones. What you more experienced people know is that if the queen cell is made on an area of dark comb, then it too will be dark. If it is made on new comb it will be light. The colour means nothing. You have to look inside them all.

Hope not offended OP. Trying to be helpful.

 

[YorkshireBees]

I have been out to see lots of beginners again this year who said either that they had no eggs or no queen or queen cells. Mostly, as usual all was well and they were worrying about nothing.

Lots of people seem to think that it is the shape of the play cup that is diagnostic. They do not look inside properly. They assume that if it has been drawn down more than from the initial acorn cup shape, then it must be charged. We must look inside. Perhaps OP did, perhaps not.

While I'm on the subject.....the other thing newbies are saying is that it is the colour of the cup that indicates whether it is old or new. They don't bother to look inside the dark old ones. What you more experienced people know is that if the queen cell is made on an area of dark comb, then it too will be dark. If it is made on new comb it will be light. The colour means nothing. You have to look inside them all.

Hope not offended OP. Trying to be helpful.

In fact I wasn't 100% sure when the OP stated that 'full blown' queencells were built when a queen hadn't started laying?
Where would the initial egg come from?

Although most play cups I have see during inspections are the acorn shape and not drawn down every far, I have also see some that look like they mean serious business only to find they are empty.
The easiest thing to do if you cannot confirm visually if the cell is charged is to open it up with your hive tool so you can look inside. Of course if it is charged then I would remove that particular cell as I had damaged it.

 

[Meg]

"Of course if it is charged then I would remove that particular cell as I had damaged it."

I wouldn't! Yorkshire Bees - they might need it. If you have only damaged the cell and not the larvae then the bees will repair it quite happily. If it is the only viable thing left in the colony then you would probably let out just a few expletives if you removed it.

Meg

 

[YorkshireBees]

"Of course if it is charged then I would remove that particular cell as I had damaged it."

I wouldn't! Yorkshire Bees - they might need it. If you have only damaged the cell and not the larvae then the bees will repair it quite happily. If it is the only viable thing left in the colony then you would probably let out just a few expletives if you removed it.

Meg

I am of course talking about normal inspections where the hive is Q+, if I suspect the hive has already swarmed then of course I do not remove all charged QC's before selecting one that I want to keep.
I personally have got used to being able to tell / see if a cell is charged or not 99% of the time without disturbing it however if I believe the Queen is present in the colony or I have already seen eggs then I remove / destroy some cups/cells without worrying to check if they are already planning to swarm.

Also I have the luxury that if I accidentally remove all viable QC's from a colony and then realise that they have already swarmed (only done it once) then I can donate a frame of eggs from another colony quite easily. May not be the best practice but it prevents a colony from being queenless without the ability to raise another.

My point was that as a beginner / inexperienced beekeeper you have to learn to assess the situation, part of his being able to tell if a play cup is just that or a charged QC, and react accordingly.

I make many, hopefully small, mistakes but I learn from almost each and everyone of them!

 

[Chris58]

Someone mentioned about a queen being 'damaged' such as with bad leg, they might supercede her. Our really good laying 2011 queen has a damaged rear right leg and hobble about, but boy can she lay eggs - I've had to artificially swarm her she'd got the QC's all over the place and was building up to a swarm. She might be old and infrim, I'll be sorry to lose her, oh and she is marked.

 

[drex]

My mentee whom I trust on his observations asked me about this very situation today. I could not account for it so we asked our tutor, who just said, be grateful the bees know what they are doing even if we cannot explain it.

 

[Orpheus64]

Two of my colonies have flummoxed me. They are Nationals, about 600mm apart, both facing the same way. They both swarmed in April despite swarm management techniques, they both developed new queens and up until three weeks ago were both laying and building up, then when I inspected them last Saturday both appear to be queenless, no brood seen, but numerous sealed QCs in both colonies. They had food, room to grow, they were only covering 6 to 7 of the 11 frames, both colonies had a super on. I'm only in my second full season and I don't really know what they're doing. The odd thing is that they seem to be doing everything in concert. Seeing as the bees have more experience than me I've left them to it. Hopefully they'll develop new queens and build up again.