What happens if frames are mounted vertically?

[viridens]

I am looking at different ways of transferring a colony from a full National nuc into a Warre hive.

One plan would mean the frames from the nuc would be turned through 90 degrees and mounted vertically in an adapter box until the colony hopefully draws comb in the new hive body and moves in.

Does anyone have any experience of they effects of mounting a frame containing brood and stores vertically?
-Or any opinions or speculation?

 

[Anduril]

Bailey comb change, nuc underneath correct way round with wooden board on top with a hole cut in the middle to accommodate the warre brood box, have the board on stilts to balance the above box. This is just another way of changing from langstroth to national or vice versa. Why complicate the situation with a specialised box when one piece of wood is all that is needed.
If you want to use a box with frames at 90° think of a fallen tree and the bees will adapt.

 

[enrico]

Be careful, a bee cell is 6 sided, the point of a cell points up and down. If you tilt the frame through 90 degrees the flat side of the cell will point up and down. I am not saying they won't use it but they build them that way for a reason! (Probably strength) Over time they will twist the cells so they are the right way up but.......
E

 

[Erichalfbee]

But they seem to cope. If you have a colony that has built in an empty box and has attached the comb to the crown board you can turn the box upside down to move them up

 

[enrico]

Hate to say it but that is 180 degrees so points of cells are still top to bottom! Not quite the same as 90 degrees!
E

 

[Anduril]

Derek did an experiment with frames at 90°. The OP wants to do this on a temporary basis if I have read it correctly, to transfer from nuc to warre.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hate to say it but that is 180 degrees so points of cells are still top to bottom! Not quite the same as 90 degrees!
E

Ah yes

 

[Anduril]

Link to frames at 90°
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=26168

 

[user 6228]

Derek did an experiment with frames at 90°. The OP wants to do this on a temporary basis if I have read it correctly, to transfer from nuc to warre.

Yes it worked...as far the bees were concerned. They did some strange things in their tall insulated hive, but thats another story.

 

[drex]

I have done this transfer as Anduril suggests with a board with a hole cut in it. Also done a "chop and crop" where the comb is cut down to Warre dimensions, but still attached to top bar, which is cropped to Warre length with a hedge lopper, then tied onto the warre top bar. The bees settle in quicker with the latter but it can get messy. These frames are then worked out as season progresses.

 

[enrico]

Derek did an experiment with frames at 90°. The OP wants to do this on a temporary basis if I have read it correctly, to transfer from nuc to warre.

Oh yes! I remember losing this 'cell the wrong way up ' argument then!
I really must do an experiment and see what happens!
E

 

[midnight sun]

Be careful, a bee cell is 6 sided, the point of a cell points up and down. If you tilt the frame through 90 degrees the flat side of the cell will point up and down. I am not saying they won't use it but they build them that way for a reason! (Probably strength) Over time they will twist the cells so they are the right way up but.......
E

Hi Enrico
The hexagon is the most efficient use of material to form cells from one wall to another. The shape is used throughout nature due to this phenomenon.
It is said that the bees originate the cell as cylinders working inside and turning around as they build. The pressing on the cell wall, to thin it causes the wall to become flat when next to another cell worked by other bees and so this pattern is reproduced throught the structure. Of course I've never seen it done but the 'efficiency' theory is sound according to recent science.
Just though you might be interested.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Use the warree for firewood and get a proper hive

 

[BeeJayBee]

Oh yes! I remember losing this 'cell the wrong way up ' argument then!
I really must do an experiment and see what happens!

I recently saw some comb that had been taken out of a fallen tree. The comb had ended up horizontal and the bees just carried on using it as it was, they didn't seem to have made any attempt to build any new comb vertically. It was quite a big colony too, so no lack of workers to make adjustments.

 

[Tom Bick]

Be careful, a bee cell is 6 sided, the point of a cell points up and down. If you tilt the frame through 90 degrees the flat side of the cell will point up and down. I am not saying they won't use it but they build them that way for a reason! (Probably strength) Over time they will twist the cells so they are the right way up but.......
E

The orientation of the cell makes no difference to the bees and happy to build comb with the flat side down or point down even at 45 degrees if the mood takes them. The important bit is the angle from the midrib. Turn a comb sideways and that will cause problems for the bees.

 

[enrico]

Thinking about it I suppose the interior of the cell is round anyway so why should they mind. When you say the angle of the midrib, do you mean that that should always be vertical?
E

 

[user 6228]

Thinking about it I suppose the interior of the cell is round anyway so why should they mind. When you say the angle of the midrib, do you mean that that should always be vertical?
E

honeybees build the comb with a ~10 degree slope upwards from the midrib. There is also a ~400 micron rounded lip on the 100 - 200 micron wall.

 

[Tom Bick]

No its the angle of the cell from the midrib that is important and is generally about eight degrees pointing upwards. The cells are not round but are hexagonal all the way down its just the thickening of the top that gives a round central look.

Take a look at these two adjacent combs both from the same TBH I see the same thing many times in my framed foundationless frames.

 

[enrico]

Ok, thanks everyone, I shall never bring the subject of cell orientation up again I promise.
Hehe!
E

 

[user 6228]

Ok, thanks everyone, I shall never bring the subject of cell orientation up again I promise.
Hehe!
E

no dont do that

keep up the good work of challenging accepted wisdom...