Wasps

[Karol]

<snip>

.......Trying to relate the life expectancy of an adult worker to the amount of meconia (feccal pellets) found in the nest doesn't seem to me to be a necessarily robust method not least because it doesn't account for any excretion taking place outside of the nest as the activities of adults change during the different phases of nest development and subsequent nest decline which is when workers spend most of their time sweet feeding (and therefore pooing) away from the nest.

<snip>.

I don't know what planet I was on when I posted this. I stick by my comments that the high degree of uncertainty remains in trying to use meconia as a measure for worker survival as quoted in the paper viz;

"By making meconia counts within small cells estimates can be made of
worker survival during SCC and the early subphases of LCC."

but as for the rest ........



The uncertainty around meconia comes from making assumptions that each larva deposits only one pellet and further more that workers haven't removed any as part of their nest cleaning activities. As for wasps pooing away from the nest - it's not poo so much as wee so why I wrote that I have no idea.

I'm going to go and lie down in a dark room!

 

[Karol]

<snip>
The appearance of carbohydrate foraging (‘nusiance’) wasps coincides with the large cell colony and is described as follows in, Social Wasps, Their Biology and Control (Edwards 1980) ....

It does coincide with the large cell colony but it's important to understand that there is a transition as grubs pupate and the sexuals then emerge and the old queen stops laying eggs (all within this phase). Once there are no grubs in the nest the need for 'protein' disappears but so does the carbohydrate food source for a lot of the adult workers. The switch from hunting to carbohydrate feeding is not immediate and occurs over a few days as the proportion of grubs diminishes. When the sexuals are in the larval stage around mid to late July (depending on the weather and staging of the nest) then that is when hunting is at it's peak at a time when the nest has produced most of its workers which are out hunting (as well as doing other things) and it's very rare to find wasps sweet feeding to any great degree at this stage (larval sexuals) despite the nest being pretty well fully stocked with workers.

PS

I am going to have to sign off for a while so apologies if I don't reply to any questions for a bit.

 

[sharonh]

Wasps here are still eating insects, as saw them catch flies while flying in my poly tunnel.
Does this mean that they are still feeding grubs in the nest.
Or do adult wasps eat both a sugary diet and insects when no grubs to feed.
Would they still have young in the nest in October.
I don't see any decrease with them yet.
A lot trying to gain access into the hives yesterday ,but wasp bane got them. Bees defending well also.
Don't want to put mouse guards on until wasps are gone. cant come quick enough for me, a proven pest this year I'm afraid.

 

[Walrus]

They have been a pain for me too but much better now that I have destroyed 3 nearby nests.

One of my WB traps has caught a whopping great hornet. Orrible thing.

 

[mbc]

a whopping great hornet. Orrible thing.

Are you sure you actually like bees ??!
I find hornets lovely looking creatures, possibly not when bedraggled and drowned in a sea of sticky wasps mind.

 

[Walrus]

Great post mbc; thanks

 

[mbc]

Great post mbc; thanks

You're welcome.
If you think its trolling to point out the irony of a beekeeper thinking hornets look orrible then we're on different planets, good bye

 

[Chris Luck]

Nothing is horrible in the natural world, I even share my apples with them as well as a few bees.



Chris

 

[Swarm]

Stunning!

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Beautiful photo; beautiful creature.


Dusty

 

[ichbinpaul]

Stunning!

I knew a woman like this once beautful creature!, lost the shirt off my back I was left with a heart beat and my breath at least! Orrible woman!!!

 

[PBee]

.....
The uncertainty around meconia comes from making assumptions that each larva deposits only one pellet and further more that workers haven't removed any as part of their nest cleaning activities.

A larva can only physically deposit one meconium and it is not cleaned out by the nurse wasps.

The larval gut does not communicate with the rectum, the lumen between mid and hind gut being occluded until cocoon spinning is completed…
The gut is of considerable interest because wasp larvae store the indigestible remains of their food in the midgut until, at the time of pupation, the lumen is filled with a semi-solid, black mass …. After completing feeding, the mature larva begins to spin its cocoon… With the cocoon complete, the larva re-orientates with its head facing towards the centre of the comb. The faecal mass which accumulates in the midgut during larval development is now voided and applied to the base of the cell as a thick, cup-shaped disc... With the voiding of the faeces, the pre-pupal stage is reached and the larva begins its metamorphosis into the pupal form. (Spradbery 1973).

A second sanitation duty is to clean used cells: remnants of the silk capping are chewed off and the small amount of cocoon inside the cell is removed. However, the remains of cast larval skins and the larval meconium are left behind at the base of the cell.(Edwards 1980)

...... When the sexuals are in the larval stage around mid to late July (depending on the weather and staging of the nest) then that is when hunting is at it's peak at a time when the nest has produced most of its workers which are out hunting (as well as doing other things) and it's very rare to find wasps sweet feeding to any great degree at this stage (larval sexuals) despite the nest being pretty well fully stocked with workers.

The large cell phase begins on average in England, according to Archer, in early to mid August - so by definition larvae will be present after this period.

P germanica. In England, colonies are initiated from early May, with the first workers appearing from early June, large-cell building starting from early to mid-August… P. vulgaris. In England, colony initiation is from mid-May, the first workers emerging from early June, large-cell building from early August…
Phase 2 - the large cell colony (LCC): from the building of the large cells in which queens and some further males are reared.
The large cell phase is divided into four subphases with the last one further divided into three subphases when there are sufficient data: LCCE when large cell brood is present at the egg stage; LCCL when large cell brood is present up to the larval stage; LCCS when large cell brood is present up to the sealed brood stage; LCCA when the sexuals have started to emerge from the large cells. (Archer 2008)

.....
I don't know what planet I was on when I posted this.

The seventh? - although adult wasps do sometimes produce pelleted waste.

 

[Karol]

A larva can only physically deposit one meconium and it is not cleaned out by the nurse wasps.

Who says the meconium is deposited in one 'sitting' - Please note the absence of an 'h' is not a typo! :0)

From experience I would have to differ with regards to the cleaning out of meconia. It is not uncommon to find meconia discarded in a heap beneath wasp nests built in attic spaces. During hot summers when wasps posit water over the outside of the nest to aid cooling, the amount of water posited can be so great that it literally runs off the nest and soaks through the heap of discarded meconia. Where this happens on a plaster board ceiling, this results in a large dark wet stain appearing which occupants mistake for a leaking pipe only call out a plumber. The plumber invariably then gets a nasty shock!

The large cell phase begins on average in England, according to Archer, in early to mid August - so by definition larvae will be present after this period.

There are so many contradictions. Queens don't wait until cells are built to lay eggs. They lay eggs in incomplete cells and then build the cells around them. It's only follow on generations where eggs are laid in pre-completed cells. So, whilst the large cell phase does usually occur in early August, what this means is that sexual larvae are well on the way to being fully grown if not already pupated by then.

Similarly I have video footage of worker wasps emerging in mid-April in vulgaris nests, fully two months before what is stated in the paper you quote. There is no fixed timetable for wasp nest development or staging.

The seventh? - although adult wasps do sometimes produce pelleted waste.

Never encountered it in practice. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I've never seen it despite keeping hundreds of live wasps captive for study and research. So I was definitely spouting from the seventh planet!

 

[Karol]

Wasps here are still eating insects, as saw them catch flies while flying in my poly tunnel.
Does this mean that they are still feeding grubs in the nest.

In my experience I would have to say yes.

Or do adult wasps eat both a sugary diet and insects when no grubs to feed.

Adult wasps will 'swallow' maxalated 'wet' insects (i.e. grubs and caterpillars) but this only really happens during the hunting phase. We have monitoring stations where we observe wasp behaviour throughout the year. Typical hunting behaviour includes such things as wasps visiting and robbing cob webs, or hunting around compost heaps. Hunting behaviour is very specific in wasps and they employ various technques and strategies such as ambush hunting on flower heads and random rooting for grazing insects. During the sweet feeding phase, this activity disappears completely and we only see wasps then on sweet foods.

What does confuse things is when nests mature at different times or when we see a second round of sexual progeny being produced. In one of the nests that we had under observation back in 2009, the nest released its sexuals in early August and the colony converted to sweet feeding. After the end of the first week in September, the nest reverted to hunting and the adults stopped sweet feeding (from monitoring stations set out for them). The wasps were observed reverting to hunting type - hunting from cob webs, a compost heap and various flower beds and shrubs. A new set of sexuals was then released in October and worker activity in the nest continued into November with adults reverting to sweet feeding off of ivy. This was the first time that we had witnessed a second round of sexual progeny.

Would they still have young in the nest in October.

This is not unusual. We have seen wasp nests mature as late as November.

I don't see any decrease with them yet.

I'm not surprised and if you look back at my postings I did warn that this was likely to be the case. Do you happen to know if the hunting wasps are vulgaris (anchor on face) or germanica (three dots on face).

<snip>
Don't want to put mouse guards on until wasps are gone. cant come quick enough for me, a proven pest this year I'm afraid.

I would not be surprised if you still have wasps for another month! The thing to be careful of is if the weather remains mild after the last of the ivy has stopped flowering then you may get a last wasp Hurrah at your hives and that's the time to be vigilant to ensure that they don't then overwhelm any smaller bee colonies that you might have.

 

[sharonh]

In my experience I would have to say yes.



Adult wasps will 'swallow' maxalated 'wet' insects (i.e. grubs and caterpillars) but this only really happens during the hunting phase. We have monitoring stations where we observe wasp behaviour throughout the year. Typical hunting behaviour includes such things as wasps visiting and robbing cob webs, or hunting around compost heaps. Hunting behaviour is very specific in wasps and they employ various technques and strategies such as ambush hunting on flower heads and random rooting for grazing insects. During the sweet feeding phase, this activity disappears completely and we only see wasps then on sweet foods.

What does confuse things is when nests mature at different times or when we see a second round of sexual progeny being produced. In one of the nests that we had under observation back in 2009, the nest released its sexuals in early August and the colony converted to sweet feeding. After the end of the first week in September, the nest reverted to hunting and the adults stopped sweet feeding (from monitoring stations set out for them). The wasps were observed reverting to hunting type - hunting from cob webs, a compost heap and various flower beds and shrubs. A new set of sexuals was then released in October and worker activity in the nest continued into November with adults reverting to sweet feeding off of ivy. This was the first time that we had witnessed a second round of sexual progeny.



This is not unusual. We have seen wasp nests mature as late as November.



I'm not surprised and if you look back at my postings I did warn that this was likely to be the case. Do you happen to know if the hunting wasps are vulgaris (anchor on face) or germanica (three dots on face).



I would not be surprised if you still have wasps for another month! The thing to be careful of is if the weather remains mild after the last of the ivy has stopped flowering then you may get a last wasp Hurrah at your hives and that's the time to be vigilant to ensure that they don't then overwhelm any smaller bee colonies that you might have.

Hi Karol,
Thanks for your feed back.

Hope you can see enough from this photo.
Some seem to have yellow on the head but others have darker looking heads.
Sharon

 

[mbc]

.....
I don't know what planet I was on when I posted this.

The seventh? - although adult wasps do sometimes produce pelleted waste.

 

[steveninety]

have had a big problem with wasps in one hive, which has turned out to be queenless and weak.they were also quite aggressive. so decided to merge the weak with stronger hive with a good colony and queen, did all the right stuff , read the books saw the youtube vids just to make sure i did it all right. used the newspaper method between boxes.
and then left them to it.
shock horror now i have loads of dead bees out side hive.
what have i done wrong very very upset over this.
have i just mudered my bees.?????????????

 

[sharonh]

have had a big problem with wasps in one hive, which has turned out to be queenless and weak.they were also quite aggressive. so decided to merge the weak with stronger hive with a good colony and queen, did all the right stuff , read the books saw the youtube vids just to make sure i did it all right. used the newspaper method between boxes.
and then left them to it.
shock horror now i have loads of dead bees out side hive.
what have i done wrong very very upset over this.
have i just mudered my bees.?????????????

Sorry to hear that.
Are they workers that are dead or the last of the drones.
I have not experienced anything like that happening from combining, but some one with more experience might be able to tell you what went on.

 

[sharonh]

have had a big problem with wasps in one hive, which has turned out to be queenless and weak.they were also quite aggressive. so decided to merge the weak with stronger hive with a good colony and queen, did all the right stuff , read the books saw the youtube vids just to make sure i did it all right. used the newspaper method between boxes.
and then left them to it.
shock horror now i have loads of dead bees out side hive.
what have i done wrong very very upset over this.
have i just mudered my bees.?????????????

Steven,
Post new topic, on combining and what happened, so that other members see your question. Sorry I couldn't be of help in this matter, but someone that has combined more than once might know what's going on.
Try your question ( new topic )
Sharon

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

have had a big problem with wasps in one hive, which has turned out to be queenless and weak.they were also quite aggressive. so decided to merge the weak with stronger hive with a good colony and queen, did all the right stuff , read the books saw the youtube vids just to make sure i did it all right. used the newspaper method between boxes.
and then left them to it.
shock horror now i have loads of dead bees out side hive.
what have i done wrong very very upset over this.
have i just mudered my bees.?????????????

When you say loads of dead bees - specirfiy loads. help us if you actually related to us what you did during this unite

Agree with Sharonh - start a new thread otherwise a lot won't see it on here as this thread is getting a bit tired