Virgin Queens killing other queen cells

[BMH]

I have made up some nucs buy just taking some frames of brood, stores and eggs and letting the bees make some emergency cells.

My question is, when the first virgin emerges, does she kill all other queens in the cells or wait for them to emerge and then kill them as they emerge?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have made up some nucs buy just taking some frames of brood, stores and eggs and letting the bees make some emergency cells.

My question is, when the first virgin emerges, does she kill all other queens in the cells or wait for them to emerge and then kill them as they emerge?

Depends what the rest of the bees decide -they manage the whole thing, they might even keep them all in and release them one by one to swarm.
G
I would go in three, four days after the split and take down the cells already sealed and keep a nice open one for the bees to raise.
However Wally Shaw makes all his nucs up from splits and leaving them make emergency cells and doesn't take down any, leaving the bees decide which cell they want to keep - the reasoning is, as they are a small colony they're not interested in swarming but just want a new queen.He makes up a heck of a lot more than me every year.

 

[BMH]

ok - thats good to know.

reason I ask is I opened one up and there was an emerged queen on frame with two sealed cells, so I flicked her into the colony and moved the frame to another nuc that I made up to give it a head start.

Was just wondering if i had given the new nuc a couple of dead queen cells.

the colonies are small. i dont think they will swarm with so few bees

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Have a look at this:

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Simple-methods-of-making-Increase-Final-reduced1.pdf

 

[BMH]

ah thats really helpful. thanks..

will have a read through before going to bed..

cheers.

 

[Itchy]

Great article

 

[Poly Hive]

Creating queens by making up weak nucs and hoping for good queens is not best practice and certainly not something I for one would recommend.

The norm is to raise cells by grafting or other methods and presenting the desired material to a strong queenless unit to raise the queens, and then when the cells are sealed make up nucs and give them the cells.

PH

 

[Eyeman]

the colonies are small. i dont think they will swarm with so few bees

As PH said I would be concerned about how well those emergency QC will be fed and looked after if the colonies are small.
I would have removed the queen from the original strong hive, (clearing any supers of bees the day before) and put her into a small nuc. This strong colony will rear emergency queen cells. Then 10 days later split that queenless colony onto separate nucs with one queen cell each.

 

[REDWOOD]

+ leave enough brood in the original colony and replace the queen and supers so all the forages return


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[Beeline]

I may have read it too fast and missed something but under section 8 Wally says;

"Nucs made out of a colony that is set up to swarm MUST remain in the
same apiary long enough for the flying bees to return to their original
hive position. If a nuc is immediately moved to an apiary at a distance,
from which the flying bees can not return home, the swarming impulse
persists and it is likely to swarm with the first virgin queen to emerge."

but then later, under section 13, goes on to say;

"The entrances to a nuc boxes should be blocked whilst being populated
with bees and brood (to retain as many bees as possible) and should
then be removed to a mating apiary that is 2-3 miles distant."

This appears to be conflicting advice.

 

[REDWOOD]

First is correct
Second is correct if you are making nucs from a colony that is not in swarm mode, if you raise queens in a cell raising colony they are not in swarm mode.


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[Finman]

I may have read it too fast and missed something but under section 8 Wally says;

"Nucs made out of a colony that is set up to swarm MUST remain in the
same apiary long enough for the flying bees to return to their original
hive position. If a nuc is immediately moved to an apiary at a distance,
from which the flying bees can not return home, the swarming impulse
persists and it is likely to swarm with the first virgin queen to emerge."

but then later, under section 13, goes on to say;

"The entrances to a nuc boxes should be blocked whilst being populated
with bees and brood (to retain as many bees as possible) and should
then be removed to a mating apiary that is 2-3 miles distant."

This appears to be conflicting advice.

It is better to cut off the swarming fever first, before you do anything with that hive.
It takes two days when you make an AS, and bees start go draw foundations. When swarming fever is over, then continue with nuc making.

.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I may have read it too fast and missed something but under section 8 Wally says;

"Nucs made out of a colony that is set up to swarm MUST remain in the
same apiary long enough for the flying bees to return to their original
hive position. If a nuc is immediately moved to an apiary at a distance,
from which the flying bees can not return home, the swarming impulse
persists and it is likely to swarm with the first virgin queen to emerge."

but then later, under section 13, goes on to say;

"The entrances to a nuc boxes should be blocked whilst being populated
with bees and brood (to retain as many bees as possible) and should
then be removed to a mating apiary that is 2-3 miles distant."

This appears to be conflicting advice.

not really - the first is if you take nucs from a colony full of QC's as they are on the verge of swarming. The second is if you are just making up nucs from colonies which haven't already got QC's.

 

[Poly Hive]

Not so sure that advice is totally right. By moving a swarmy hive some miles the bees very often change their minds about swarming.

A nuc made up then moved in my experience settles promptly and I have never that I know of lost a swarm out of a nuc. And I have made up a considerable number from swarmy hives. Must be the way I make them...lol

PH

 

[BMH]

I clearly haven't read this document correctly then.

does it not say it's OK to just remove 6 frames of emerging brood, eggs, pollen and stores and place in a nuc leaving the old queen in the original hive and just let them get on with it? then they will form emergency cells which can be just as good as other queens.

each nuc I made had 3 frames of brood, 1 frame of eggs, 2 frames of stores and pollen and nurse bees from about 4 extra frames. maybe small isn't the correct word for them. they aren't huge but reasonable size nucs. they each created about 5/6 queen cells with big chubby grubs in pools of royal jelly.

hopefully they turn out OK. next time I will try what you recommended and remove the Queen and let the original colony raise the cells then split into nucs.

 

[Finman]

.
Better to nothing, if you do not know, what the advice means.

 

[BMH]

I understand the advice. I was referring to what was stated in the document that JBM provided.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

does it not say it's OK to just remove 6 frames of emerging brood, eggs, pollen and stores and place in a nuc leaving the old queen in the original hive and just let them get on with it? then they will form emergency cells which can be just as good as other queens.

Wally has had a lot of experience in making increase this way (40 odd nucs a year I believe) and his methods seem successful.
We may not see eye to eye on everything (we are beekeepers after all) but I would trust his advice and experience over a lot of others.

 

[Goran]

I may have read it too fast and missed something but under section 8 Wally says;

"Nucs made out of a colony that is set up to swarm MUST remain in the
same apiary long enough for the flying bees to return to their original
hive position. If a nuc is immediately moved to an apiary at a distance,
from which the flying bees can not return home, the swarming impulse
persists and it is likely to swarm with the first virgin queen to emerge."

but then later, under section 13, goes on to say;

"The entrances to a nuc boxes should be blocked whilst being populated
with bees and brood (to retain as many bees as possible) and should
then be removed to a mating apiary that is 2-3 miles distant."

This appears to be conflicting advice.

When is colony in swarm mood, I always take off old queen with few frames of brood and food away 3km ( or in cellar for couple of days). Two qcells remain in "oldie" colony. Never swarmed so far in such way. It is common practice here. And "oldie" such strong bring significant amount of honey itself, not rarely full deep lang box of honey. But I never split it before qcells are sealed.

 

[REDWOOD]

Yep locking them up for a few day will re set their sat nav and they won't return to original hive


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