Varroa

[Jimmys Mum]

Hi All, I'm after some advice please whilst the weather is still warm enough to take some action (maybe!)
I have a 14x12 hive that appears to still have a significant varroa problem despite treatment with Apilife Var 31st Aug-28th Sept. Hive was fully sealed up and treatment applied as per instructions. Drops monitored over this 4 week period totalled a drop of over 2000 mites.
This colony seemed to have been dwindling since September but I hoped that after treatment it would pick up.
However it has lost 3.5kg in weight over the last 3 weeks. For this reason only, I took a quick look (in 16 degree Berkshire sunshine) yesterday and found BIAS over 3 frames and stores over all frames but some frames only half full. There were 25+ bees with DWV. This hive has taken down 13 pints of a mix of thymolated 2:1 syrup and more recently, Ambrosia.
I put the inspection board under the OMF yesterday and this morning there are 36 varroa on the board. Yikes.
I do have some MAQS here still. Given that the temperatures are still forecast high enough (10 degrees or higher) for another week or so, should I just put some on and then put them into a poly nuc for the winter?
I don't think I have much in the way of other options.
Only in my second season so would appreciate some kindly advice.
Thanks
JM

 

[Madge]

Apilife Var is an essential-oil-based treatment and temperature dependant. You may need another kind of treatment. I use Apivar, but it is a licensed product which should be prescribed by a vet. Consulting a vet might be a good idea anyway. I'll send you the name of two practices.
Kitta

 

[beeno]

Hi Jimmys Mum,
My God, you do have your fair share of trials and tribulations. You are certainly a proper beek now! I would do exactly as you said. Hope you caught it on time, but how amazing that there's still so many varroa after treatment! Better check mine again!
I might have missed it, but did your swarm stay put?

 

[RoseCottage]

If they have taken down their winter food and are still suffering bad varroa, I would be tempted to put some apiguard in for 2 more weeks. I would also plan on Oxalic around Nee Year....and perhaps depending upon their condition.early season...a shook swarm.

No doubt I'll be shot by the crowd now...

All the best,
Sam

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Hi Jimmys Mum,
My God, you do have your fair share of trials and tribulations. You are certainly a proper beek now! I would do exactly as you said. Hope you caught it on time, but how amazing that there's still so many varroa after treatment! Better check mine again!
I might have missed it, but did your swarm stay put?

Hi Beeno, yes the swarm stayed put but they balled their queen probably because of all the beekeeper interference!

 

[Finman]

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If varroa infection goes too far this time of autumn, in worst case last brood are badly injured. Hive does not get normal winterbees. The larve feeders and summer bees die, and the hive will be empty. Just some violated brood remains.

This time of year the colony cannot rear any more new bees.

That happens when hive is big, and the mite load goes into new brood cycle after cycle.

I have just now a cup size colony. It was one box hive 2 months ago and stored winter food normally.

Treatment stuff do not affect under cappings. And if you get mostly violated brood from 3 weeks brood cycle, the colony is gone.

Why this happens? If mite load is tioo big in spring....and even if load is normal, the colony may rob the "feral" hive, which is not able any more protect the hive. Mites move to robbers, and the colony will be gone in a month.

.

I have badly contaminated hives more. I took the rest brood away and I trickled the bees. Thymol and formic acid does not work well any more in these temperatures . It should be about 17C out temp.

 

[Finman]

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That description is the worst case in deads out by varroa. I told the mechanism how it happens.

Then there are the whole scale of variations, when the colony looses 20% of its winter bees or 50%.

When a big summer hive starts to windle, the pressure of mites will be exponential towards the rest brood. That is why end seems to come quickly.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

.
That description is the worst case in deads out by varroa. I told the mechanism how it happens.

Then there are the whole scale of variations, when the colony looses 20% of its winter bees or 50%.

When a big summer hive starts to windle, the pressure of mites will be exponential towards the rest brood. That is why end seems to come quickly.

Thanks Finman, that does all make very good sense. It's surprised me how quickly it can happen. And yes, this was my strongest biggest hive this Summer.
At least I have other colonies in case this one does not make it!

 

[beeno]

.
If varroa infection goes too far this time of autumn, in worst case last brood are badly injured. Hive does not get normal winterbees. The larve feeders and summer bees die, and the hive will be empty. Just some violated brood remains.

This time of year the colony cannot rear any more new bees.

That happens when hive is big, and the mite load goes into new brood cycle after cycle.

I have just now a cup size colony. It was one box hive 2 months ago and stored winter food normally.

Treatment stuff do not affect under cappings. And if you get mostly violated brood from 3 weeks brood cycle, the colony is gone.

Why this happens? If mite load is tioo big in spring....and even if load is normal, the colony may rob the "feral" hive, which is not able any more protect the hive. Mites move to robbers, and the colony will be gone in a month.

.

I have badly contaminated hives more. I took the rest brood away and I trickled the bees. Thymol and formic acid does not work well any more in these temperatures . It should be about 17C out temp.

Hi again Jimmys Mum and Finman,
Let's give them a chance. MAQS I thought worked inside brood (not used them myself yet) and the weather is good here with warm nights and pollen. They might just squeeze in another brood cycle? Here is hoping!
One of my colonies have not had any material amount of winter bees yet, but lots end Aug. Be interesting to find out what they are up to in due course if anything. Some article I read suggested that some colonies only start brooding when they cluster in autumn and no clustering on the horizon here!

 

[mbc]

The apivar suggestion is as good as anything as an emergency measure at this time of year IMHO. 36 mites dropping over night certainly needs some remedial action to give them a fighting chance, possibly the apilifevar has given them enough clean brood so they will be strong enough to cope with an oxalic trickle once they're broodless.

 

[itma]

"Thymolated syrup" - was it emulsified or just to protect from mould?
Have you tested for Nosema?
Its another reason for the colony failing to thrive, and its better to know the score than not.


Lots of deformed wings alone indicates a serious varroa problem.
36 in 24 hours looks that way too, but might not be appropriate to accept in isolation (varroa death rate can be 'lumpy' after treatment).
Keep monitoring!

I'd inspect for brood. (It is mild if breezy today.)
If there's not much at all, I'd cull it (not much of a loss) and then treat with Oxalic in a couple of days.
But if there is still a lot of brood (different strains of bees behave differently with the seasons) then I think the DWV level suggests that a pyretheroid treatment might be worth a try. It isn't as temperature dependant as the other products. But it is a roll of the dice as to whether they are resistant. But even after 2 years without, it should still give a good kill.
Meanwhile, I'd say, keep monitoring.


The main lesson to be learned is that the varroa situation had got out of hand before treating. With MAQS you can treat in season as sonn as you spot a problem, and you should always be looking.
The second lesson is that monitoring the treatment kill may be satisfying, but it ain't what matters. I reckon what really matters is the level of infestation REMAINING AFTER treatment. So checking a few weeks after is very important.


With a weak colony, it becomes very important to prevent robbing and similar troubles. I'd suggest mouseguarding now on a much reduced entrance - and frequent checking (chopstick or similar) that the few holes allowed don't get bunged up.
If they are being robbed by other bees AND the victims have lots of varroa, then the robbers will also be picking up varroa and taking them home with them ...

 

[Finman]

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What to do if you notice in July or in early August that mite load is big....
You see the "future" if you meet lots of mites in drone brood. Tens of mites in drone brood is too much.
The bigger the hive, the more mites.

When you do it in tíme, hive has enough healty feeder bees to rear new winter brood.



1) Make an artificial swarm. Now you have mere bees after 3-5 days. Give to the hive pollen frames. Trickle the bees and you get a clean colony for August or early September.

2) If you see the case earlier, take the queen off that the colony will be broodless in July or early August. When the colony has no brood after 3 weeks, trickle it or use something else stuff, like thymol

The colony will forage normally the rest of summer yield.

3) Make a nuc from the queen and give to it cleaned bees, which has been treated.
Finally join the hives that hive has power to rear good gang of winterbees.
Don't give brood to nuc, because nuc gets again mites.


##) The honey. Take honey frames off and shake the bees off before treatment. Give frames to another hive and it will finish the capping etc.

### Or give the honey frames to the artificial swarm.

---> ## is better because dwindling hive has not bees any more to handle those frames. It is enough when they rear brood.
.

 

[Finman]

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If you see bald brood in your hive, it propably has too much mites.Time to act.
If you have a good honey flow, take the queen off and let the hive be broodless 3 weeks.

If it is August
- Take brood frames all away.
- treet the bees (oxalic is handy)
- start a nuc with queen.

- Don't let the bees feed any more doomed brood.

Treatment takes 3 weeks time, and during that time you get a mite free brood cycle when you start with broodless colony.


Harsh, but do it.

Look those tiny holes. They are not normal ... if not AFB

 

[Jimmys Mum]

"Thymolated syrup" - was it emulsified or just to protect from mould?

Emulsified - yes
Checked for Nosema - No, but this was a very strong colony with good build up this year and only recently has dwindled in conjuction with high varroa indicators.

I'd inspect for brood. (It is mild if breezy today.)
If there's not much at all, I'd cull it (not much of a loss) and then treat with Oxalic in a couple of days

.
Brood status yesterday was two frames with very small areas of sealed brood and one frame with a large area of eggs and new larvae. So actually perhaps not that much loss and maybe this might be the way to go for a quick fix. As you say, robbing and spreading the varroa load may then become a problem if I don't address this sooner rather than later.

Wrongly, I made the assumption that a busy hive is a healthy and thriving hive, but as I think Finman also said, a strong hive with plenty of brooding will increase its varroa exponentially.

I have only used Oxalic in the Winter and either MAQS or Thymol based treatments in the Autumn and confess to having been lazy with my monitoring - lesson learned.

Thanks for advice - looks like I do still have options.

 

[Jimmys Mum]

Thanks for that info Finman - really interesting and next Summer I shall be forewarned and forearmed!

 

[Finman]

looks like I do still have options.

Never mind.

Next time you are wiser.

Be harsh to mites, because mites are harsh to you

When you open drone brood in summer, and you do not meet mites in them, it is OK.

But if you meet tens of mites in drone brood, prepare the cleaning actions but so, that you do not loose your honey yield.

In May or June mites are few but then they get exponential growth like the brood does.


To loose one hive to mites is not worse than escaped swarm.
KEEP COOL! It is only experience.

Yes but, I have reared too much brood to mites' mouth.

.
.

 

[Finman]

.
One story more....this summer

We made a false swarm in summer. We moved the brood boxes 10 feet and 2 full honey boxes. Then I put a mated queen into the hive.

The bees returned to old site like a "swarm".

Then the yield was allmost finish, and I recommend to the friend that she could sell the colony in one box.
We gathered brood frames to a box with bees and all seemed fine.

3 weeks later I went to look how the sold colony is doing It had reduced, and it had bald brood. And in front of hive there was quite much white brood pieces.
What had happened? The famous viruses? Then I saw the same in couple of my hives.

NO. The brood had the whole mite load and then they were sold to the guy.
The mites were just too much to the brood of one box hive.

That confirms the system that mites of 5 box hive are concentrated to the brood of one box. The end will be near

So we told that she gives a new hive in spring. The hive seemed bad.
NO external signs of mites before or in home hive.

What we learn more. To start a nuc with brood frame is not allways a good idea.
Start with cleaned bees is better

 

[Skyhook]

Hi again Jimmys Mum and Finman,
Let's give them a chance. MAQS I thought worked inside brood (not used them myself yet) and the weather is good here with warm nights and pollen. They might just squeeze in another brood cycle? Here is hoping!
One of my colonies have not had any material amount of winter bees yet, but lots end Aug. Be interesting to find out what they are up to in due course if anything. Some article I read suggested that some colonies only start brooding when they cluster in autumn and no clustering on the horizon here!

From MAQS instructions- Mite Away Quick Strips stops the mite where it reproduces. The strip is designed to penetrate the brood cap, stopping the mite where it reproduces. Working temperature given as 10-29.5 C, so would seem like an option.

 

[Finman]

The strip is designed to penetrate the brood cap, .

He believes who believes, but there is no stuff which kill mites under cappings.
That is pure propaganda. Company has advertised the stuff over 10 years that it affects under cappings.

Why forming acid is recommened to use 3 weeks if it kills under cappings.

" NOD launched its flagship product, Mite Away formic acid pad, in the Spring of 1997. Further refinements to the product created the Mite Away II formic acid pad. In the Spring of 2010 NOD has improved its product once again with the release of the Mite Away Quick Strip®."


It is same formic acid and nothing else.
.

 

[Finman]

Working temperature given as 10-29.5 C, so would seem like an option.

What Canadians say...
http://www.apinovar.com/articles/flash.en.html

Formic acid appear to be dangerous to queens when temp rises over 25C

Formic acid is recommended to use in temp 17C

80% of beekeepers in Canada are professionals. They take these things seriously. They have had sometimes bad difficulties with their formic acid treatments..

"What’s more, the use of formic acid is not recommended in temperatures exceeding 26 C."

"Under 20C temperatures no queen losses"


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