Varroa infertility

[B+.]

Is that because the previous 20 years hadn't produced bees with real resistance that would survive in any environment even though they were surving in the test environment without treating?

It's because population growth comes from varroa mites that are actually reproducing rather than those that are sterile.
By targeting the mites that are reproducing, a colony can keep the mite population below the level that it causes serious harm.

 

[Beefriendly]

There are plenty of examples of bees surviving without any treatment. Avignon, Swindon and Gotland to name but a few. In most cases these are not the type of bee you would wish to have in your apiary. Small colonies with frequent swarming and low honey yields.

The types of VSH B+ and others seem to be working on is quite different and not a lot of use to most ordinarily beekeepers as it requires controlled mating's or II to maintain and improve the various lines. They don't breed true; so a constant supply of queens is required if you wish to keep your apiary treatment free and get decent amounts of honey. Alas they are not readily commercially available in the numbers required to do this.

 

[madasafish]

There is a lady (Barbara) on the Natural Beekeeping Forum who has about 12 hives and been treatment free for about 10 years. She lets them swarm etc - stand alone beekeeping. Minimal honey yield..

 

[foghornleghorn]

It's because population growth comes from varroa mites that are actually reproducing rather than those that are sterile.
By targeting the mites that are reproducing, a colony can keep the mite population below the level that it causes serious harm.

But by monitoring varroa populations you were already doing that? Just not as accurately, so why is it worth the efforts of SDI and measuring vsh levels if your bees have been surviving fine without treatment even though you weren't testing for vsh and it not being present in high levels across your bees. There surely is some other factor at play, just like Ron hoskins bees were tolerating varroa without true resistance

 

[B+.]

why is it worth the efforts of SDI and measuring vsh levels if your bees have been surviving fine without treatment even though you weren't testing for vsh and it not being present in high levels across your bees. There surely is some other factor at play, just like Ron hoskins bees were tolerating varroa without true resistance

It goes back to bee genetics. The drone is haploid and only inherits genetic material from his mother. He only has the 16 chromosomes he was born with to pass on so all the sperm he produces are the same. Single-drone insemination (sdi) is used to ensure that the eggs a queen lays after being inseminated are fertilized by the same sperm. With no variation on the sire side, the only variation can come from the egg that the queen produces. So, there is a possibility of variation, but, it is kept to a minimum by only inseminating her with a single drones sperm.
Each generation is tested to make sure that expression of the behaviour is not diminished (and improved where possible) before moving on to the next generation.
It is worth the effort because breeders aren't content with the status quo. As I have tried to explain previously, I am always looking for improvement. In fact, the way breeding values are calculated ensures that breeders have to continually seek improvements (i.e. by comparing with a 5-year moving average, performance has to improve to remain above the mean).
That is just me though. I am sure that most beekeepers would already be more than happy with them.

 

[foghornleghorn]

It goes back to bee genetics. The drone is haploid and only inherits genetic material from his mother. He only has the 16 chromosomes he was born with to pass on so all the sperm he produces are the same. Single-drone insemination (sdi) is used to ensure that the eggs a queen lays after being inseminated are fertilized by the same sperm. With no variation on the sire side, the only variation can come from the egg that the queen produces. So, there is a possibility of variation, but, it is kept to a minimum by only inseminating her with a single drones sperm.
Each generation is tested to make sure that expression of the behaviour is not diminished (and improved where possible) before moving on to the next generation.
It is worth the effort because breeders aren't content with the status quo. As I have tried to explain previously, I am always looking for improvement. In fact, the way breeding values are calculated ensures that breeders have to continually seek improvements (i.e. by comparing with a 5-year moving average, performance has to improve to remain above the mean).
That is just me though. I am sure that most beekeepers would already be more than happy with them.

But are your bees not already doing perfectly without treatment?

 

[B+.]

There are plenty of examples of bees surviving without any treatment. Avignon, Swindon and Gotland to name but a few. In most cases these are not the type of bee you would wish to have in your apiary. Small colonies with frequent swarming and low honey yields.

The types of VSH B+ and others seem to be working on is quite different and not a lot of use to most ordinarily beekeepers as it requires controlled mating's or II to maintain and improve the various lines. They don't breed true; so a constant supply of queens is required if you wish to keep your apiary treatment free and get decent amounts of honey. Alas they are not readily commercially available in the numbers required to do this.

As I have explained before, I am not selecting for just one trait. It is a balancing act where progress in one trait may mean temporary setback in another. That is then redressed in subsequent generations.
I think you are wrong to suggest "ordinary beekeepers" would derive no benefit from VSH. They derive a benefit in two ways: first in the improved performance during the queens lifetime and, secondly, through the transmission of the trait through her drones to neighbouring virgins. Those beekeepers who like to raise their own queens would still see an improvement from selected stock compared to unselected stock, however, it would diminish generation after generation without effort to maintain it. The more concentrated the cluster of selected stock in an area, the more likely stray virgin queens would find mates from the drones of selected stock too.

 

[B+.]

But are your bees not already doing perfectly without treatment?

I wouldn't say "perfectly" but I would say well enough for most beekeepers.

 

[foghornleghorn]

I wouldn't say "perfectly" but I would say well enough for most beekeepers.

What sort of losses? Have you sent them to anyone without long term treatment free bees who has had them do successfully without treatment alongside bees treated as normal?

 

[B+.]

What sort of losses? Have you sent them to anyone without long term treatment free bees who has had them do successfully without treatment alongside bees treated as normal?

I'm not sure if ITLD treated J5 (open mated daughter of 55-2-70-2016 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M) but he seemed quite pleased with them (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc/status/974226676241530880). He promised to give more feedback when he finished the heather extraction but he had a group of F2s at one of his sites.

 

[Beefriendly]

first in the improved performance during the queens lifetime and, secondly, through the transmission of the trait through her drones to neighbouring virgins..

I'll agree with the first point but not the second. However, as VSH queens are not commercially available it's rather a mute point.
To date there is little evidence for a dominant transmission of VSH to the next generation....unless the lines and mating are tightly controlled. Something beyond most beekeepers abilities to control.

 

[B+.]

I'll agree with the first point but not the second. However, as VSH queens are not commercially available it's rather a mute point.
To date there is little evidence for a dominant transmission of VSH to the next generation....unless the lines and mating are tightly controlled. Something beyond most beekeepers abilities to control.

I think improved performance during the queens life is all that many beekeepers care about.
When you say "dominant transmission" I think it's a bit of an over-simplification. It's not a "on-off" switch that they have it, or they don't. It's more of a sliding scale where they have it to a degree. That's why I prefer to talk about breeding values where the performance is expressed compared to the 5-year mean.
In any case, we're diverging from the OP

 

[foghornleghorn]

I'm not sure if ITLD treated J5 (open mated daughter of 55-2-70-2016 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M) but he seemed quite pleased with them (https://twitter.com/Bplus_Amc/status/974226676241530880). He promised to give more feedback when he finished the heather extraction but he had a group of F2s at one of his sites.

Well that's the ultimate test, until those bees can go out and prove they can perform with no treatments alongside treated bees, you can't be so quick to rule out the role of viruses or other factors as reasons for varroa not being a major issue in your bees.

 

[B+.]

Well that's the ultimate test, until those bees can go out and prove they can perform with no treatments alongside treated bees, you can't be so quick to rule out the role of viruses or other factors as reasons for varroa not being a major issue in your bees.

There is no way to know anything for certain unless you test for it. Even then, it's like the MOT on your car, you only know the status at a given point in time.
However, think on this: my bees have performed consistently well with no treatments despite being surrounded by beekeepers who do.

 

[Beefriendly]

When you say "dominant transmission" I think it's a bit of an over-simplification. It's not a "on-off" switch that they have it, or they don't.

Of course it's a simplification, if I start talking about population genetics and multi-gene complexes, two locus models and linkeage most would have turned off. It seems to be a sad fact that to date any random mating of VSH queens doesn't not result in any VSH offspring.
Whereas if you purchase, say, a decent Buckfast queen then you get the enhanced performance AND your next randomly mated generation (F1) is also excellent.

 

[B+.]

Of course it's a simplification, if I start talking about population genetics and multi-gene complexes, two locus models and linkeage most would have turned off. It seems to be a sad fact that to date any random mating of VSH queens doesn't not result in any VSH offspring.

Perhaps because people don't look for it

 

[fatshark]

There are plenty of examples of bees surviving without any treatment. Avignon, Swindon and Gotland to name but a few. In most cases these are not the type of bee you would wish to have in your apiary. Small colonies with frequent swarming and low honey yields.

Frankly they're also not the sort of bees I'd like to have in a neighbours apiary either ... every time they swarm they take ~35% of the mites with them into the uncontrolled environment. How much do these small colonies contribute to pollination? These points are conveniently forgotten by many involved in this type of 'beekeeping'.

Are bees from Avignon, Swindon or Gotland 'resistant' to mites when relocated to another environment?

 

[Walrus]

Frankly they're also not the sort of bees I'd like to have in a neighbours apiary either ... every time they swarm they take ~35% of the mites with them into the uncontrolled environment. How much do these small colonies contribute to pollination? These points are conveniently forgotten by many involved in this type of 'beekeeping'.

 

[birdsandbees]

There is a lady (Barbara) on the Natural Beekeeping Forum who has about 12 hives and been treatment free for about 10 years. She lets them swarm etc - stand alone beekeeping. Minimal honey yield..

Pet Bees then basically.
The problem I suppose is that if you have treatment free beekeepers and beekeepers that do their best to control Varroa numbers in the same area then the one that tries to control them is pushing water up hill with a fork, their bees always being exposed to passengers of the untreated ones when foraging.

 

[fatshark]

And robbing them out late season ... a great way to pick up more than honey.