Too late to add another brood box

[BCBEE]

Hi.
My single hive looked nice and full yesterday when i did an inspection and the first super was full of honey so i will be adding another as soon as possible. I have a new brood box ready as well which i was going to put on in late june but they swarmed before i could fit it.

I have read in some books that its best to go into winter with 2 brood boxes and yet others on here reckon thet theres more room to heat so onely one is best.

I have eggs and capped brood as well as store in ther brood chamber etc so all seems OK but i was asking so that i can do both jobs at the same time if it was considered a good idea. What the general concensus of opinion?

On a good day the bees are going llike crazy and at dusk teres rows of the tyke on the floor grinning as though waiting for something to pass so they can pounce. They dont fly out when I approach the hive though

Phill

 

[oliver90owner]

its best to go into winter with 2 brood boxes and yet others on here reckon thet theres more room to heat so onely one is best.

If both boxes, or at least the top box, is full it makes little difference, but it is not good if there is empty space above the cluster. The bees can/will move upwards during the late autumn/early winter months. One thing to consider is, if you intend to trickle with oxalic acid in mid winter, access to the cluster may be more difficult.

I don't think I have read one of those books that say that two brood boxes is best.

I would say most in the south only leave one box. I do, but there again, I would rarely have two full sized brood boxes anyway.

I left a brood and a super when I was using National deeps and WBCs.

Shame there has not been more good days this season - and there may not be so much of it left (who knows) - so trying to get to double brood now is a bit late, especially if the comb needs drawing, IMO.

The brood nest may well be contracting at this time if the year (consult inspection records).

You need to consider the state of your bees - a consensus decision is about as useful as a chocolate teapot for anything other than 'consensus bees' and may not be apptopriate, even then.

It would appear from your post that another super is overdue.

I changed to the extra deep format, and part of the justification was of the bees over-wintering with an OMF and being able to cluster further from the flioor in mid-winter.

I find I have to often remove stores in the spring to make laying space for the queen, but that is a function of how I run my colonies (early build-op for strong colonies ready for the OSR).

The requirements for going into winter are a strong colony of healthy bees, with ample stores. I try to minimise the stores needed (during the winter) by insulation, which also avoids condensation and possible damp conditions in the hive, there being more than adequate ventilation through the OMF.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

To an extent the answer lies in the size of colony you have (you don't say) and the type of bee.
Some of my colonies, I keep and or winter on a double brood. Others I undersuper for winter (See the BBKA magazine this month for a description). Some colonies might well over-winter in a 5 frame nuc if small.
If the bees are towards the top of a double brood and there's insulation on the top of them, then there's no extra space to heat - only the area of stores above the brood nest which they'll have anyway.

It might be too late to add another super. Others local to you might be able to confirm, but for me this is the time of year that supers come off, varroa treatment continues for a month (thymol treatment can't be done with supers on as it taints the honey), and then the bees are prepared for winter.
Peak bee foraging numbers is over for the year so the colony is shrinking.

 

[BCBEE]

its best to go into winter with 2 brood boxes and yet others on here reckon thet theres more room to heat so onely one is best.

I don't think I have read one of those books that say that two brood boxes is best.

.

Thanks Olive90owner
I have actually seen it in at least 2 books.
"Practical manual of beekeeping" by david cramp and

"keeping bees" by vivial Head.
That was in the first 2 of my collection that I looked at hence the confusion.

Thanks for all the other replies and advice
Phill

 

[rae]

My take on in (South of England bias, so possibly warmer than you).

- A standard National Brood is likely to be too small to make it through the winter without feeding.

- A 14x12 has enough stores to make it through winter without feeding (depending on the winter, the initial weight, yadda yadda)

-If you are running standard Nationals, I would have a super on top (no QX) to start the winter. Full super + full Nat brood = plenty of stores.

- If you are running 14 x 12s then, the super is optional.

I can see the logic in double brood:

- If you run the super method, then the first job you have in spring is shoving a QX in and waiting for the inevitable brood in the super to hatch out. The bees then seem to treat that super as "brood" and stuff pollen in it

- Your super is exposed to Varroa treatments - the honey is not a problem (the bees will eat it), but the comb is - potential for contamination.

So on my small number of Nats, I may will take the supers off, give them a drawn Nat box in September and let them fill it. We have a very good Ivy flow. Not planning on double brooding the 14 x 12.

From a wintering perspective, it doesn't matter. As long as the bees have enough stores (however they are delivered: nat, 14 x12, double brood, fondant in a plastic bag) they will be OK for food.

 

[Tdf]

A standard National Brood is likely to be too small to make it through the winter without feeding
do you not feed bees syrup/fondant?

 

[oliver90owner]

do you not feed bees syrup/fondant?

Autumn feeding for sugar syrup, generally fondant during the winter(but can be fed in autumn).

I think rae was meaning during the winter. For me I don't normally check insde my hives from clustering until late February and have not fed sugar syrup or fondant in the autumn for at least the last five years.

The well quoted 40 pounds of stores for winter is usually more than adequate for winter, but not necessarily for spring expansion. Many feed fondant during the winter 'just in case' and then have slow spring build-up due to lack of laying space.

Bees are generally able to provision themselves with adequate winter stores if the beekeeper is not greedy. Some, of course would 'die out in the wild'. A case of survival for the strongest and fittest or living in suitable habitats. etc etc.

 

[itma]

... For me I don't normally check insde my hives from clustering until late February and have not fed sugar syrup or fondant in the autumn for at least the last five years. ...

But, nevertheless I'd expect that you might 'heft' hives before late Feb, just to make sure they aren't surprisingly light ...

 

[oliver90owner]

I'd expect that you might 'heft' hives before late Feb,

Correct. I 'might', but there again, probably not. I know they will not consume that much stores. They might die of isolation starvation, but that is a risk I take and is unusual (only happens once!!).

RAB

 

[thepliedes]

For what it is worth as a relatively new beekeeper, I was taught for a National hive to use a brood box and a super for winter and this will provide ample supplies and means you do not have to 'heft' or check removing crown board etc. thereby letting the warmth of the hive escape. Also read to feed fondant in winter months is best practice but I have found over the past couple of years that the brood box and super is sufficient. I trickle oxalic on the first day of the New Year so remove the super for this and when doing this I would always add fondant directly on to the top of the frames in the brood box using an eke and then putting on crownboard. Would check on a mild day end of January and add super again.

 

[oliver90owner]

thepliedes,

Overly complicated, unnecessary and frankly flawed!

What is the point of leaving on a super and then taking it off half way through the winter, only to put it back on again a few weeks later?

The truly simple way is to feed adequately in the autumn and leave until spring - that is what happens with feral colonies, in fact bees have done it like that for probably millions of years.

OK, you might disturb them for extra (often unnecessary) varroa treatment, but I do as most, and disturb them the absolute minimum.

 

[drex]

For what it is worth as a relatively new beekeeper, I was taught for a National hive to use a brood box and a super for winter and this will provide ample supplies and means you do not have to 'heft' or check removing crown board etc. thereby letting the warmth of the hive escape. Also read to feed fondant in winter months is best practice but I have found over the past couple of years that the brood box and super is sufficient. I trickle oxalic on the first day of the New Year so remove the super for this and when doing this I would always add fondant directly on to the top of the frames in the brood box using an eke and then putting on crownboard. Would check on a mild day end of January and add super again.

.

Wonder if you will still believe/be doing that in a few years time?
I agree with O90O but probably stand you in good stead if just beginning

 

[rae]

A standard National Brood is likely to be too small to make it through the winter without feeding
do you not feed bees syrup/fondant?

Not if I can avoid it. I'd rather the bees gathered and consumed their own honey. Our general approach:

- Honey crop off before the end of August. Varroa treatment on.
- Bees have September to reduce in size and fill brood boxes.
- If any are light (e.g. awful September) then they get syrup.
- Aim is that by mid to late October, the hives are heavy.
- All being well, the only intervention between late October and March is hefting.
- If light, then feed fondant.

Generally a 14x12 or a Nat + Super won't need feeding by March. Depends on the winter - last winter they did need it, as the bees were not tucked up in bed until January.