Time to switch to 1:1

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beeno

Queen Bee
Joined
Apr 25, 2011
Messages
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Location
South East
Hive Type
National
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Hi all, particularly pros,
After such a lovely warm day yday and a quickie inspection of two of my hives, and after having slept on it, it would appear that my bees are living a very precarious hand to mouth existence! Pollen not a problem around here at the moment, things blooming for nectar appears to be well off though. One of the colonies, my barn bees, have used up all their stores (on brood) and is heavily into fondant and collecting water. Perhaps I am answering my own question here. However, it would appear to me that it is critical for these bees to use every moment to collect water for the fondant during the milder days as they will not be able to use the fondant in a cold spell for brooding purposes. In my situation would it therefore be advisable to switch to 1:1 syrup? I know it is weather dependant, but will it chill the brood nest too much in a frame feeder against the wall. Is there a choice?
 
is heavily into fondant and collecting water. Perhaps I am answering my own question here.

You are. You need to read a few more threads and you would have known that.
 
.
If you give now 1:1 syrup, bees' first job is to ventilate extra water away.
You know what means water respiration in the hive: cooling and condensation.

.
 
is heavily into fondant and collecting water. Perhaps I am answering my own question here.

You are. You need to read a few more threads and you would have known that.

Hi Oliver,
Just looking for reassurance as a newbie it is a common trait. However, if it were not for the fact that they are out of stores would you commence 'spring feeding' now!
 
This is the time of year when brood rearing is well on the way and all the over wintered bees are replaced buy new and their stores are consumed at an alarming rate, starvation is all too frequent this time of year
 
Hi all, particularly pros,
After such a lovely warm day yday and a quickie inspection of two of my hives, and after having slept on it, it would appear that my bees are living a very precarious hand to mouth existence! Pollen not a problem around here at the moment, things blooming for nectar appears to be well off though. One of the colonies, my barn bees, have used up all their stores (on brood) and is heavily into fondant and collecting water. Perhaps I am answering my own question here. However, it would appear to me that it is critical for these bees to use every moment to collect water for the fondant during the milder days as they will not be able to use the fondant in a cold spell for brooding purposes. In my situation would it therefore be advisable to switch to 1:1 syrup? I know it is weather dependant, but will it chill the brood nest too much in a frame feeder against the wall. Is there a choice?

Personally I would keep the fondant going the bees are very capable in getting water and just the amount they need.

One other thing to remember is the bees need to keep any brood at 35*C and a quick peek as we call it could be enough to chill the brood.
 
How long can bees go without stores?
 
Hi all, particularly pros,
After such a lovely warm day yday and a quickie inspection of two of my hives, and after having slept on it, it would appear that my bees are living a very precarious hand to mouth existence! Pollen not a problem around here at the moment, things blooming for nectar appears to be well off though. One of the colonies, my barn bees, have used up all their stores (on brood) and is heavily into fondant and collecting water. Perhaps I am answering my own question here. However, it would appear to me that it is critical for these bees to use every moment to collect water for the fondant during the milder days as they will not be able to use the fondant in a cold spell for brooding purposes. In my situation would it therefore be advisable to switch to 1:1 syrup? I know it is weather dependant, but will it chill the brood nest too much in a frame feeder against the wall. Is there a choice?

A lot of questions and a lot of variables in that post, and it also brings a question about how you are feeding the fondant.

The correct way to feed fondant is in such a way that the actual water released by the bees themselves, rising in the warmer air from the cluster, both condenses on, and is hygroscopically absorbed by, the working face (the bit the bees are at) of the fondant. This gives adequate water on its own. Fondant can be fed 'open', as in not covered by polythene, in the active months as the taking of it will be faster than the drying out will be, but in winter it must have a water vapour proof layer above, and preferably all round apart from the access cut on the underside, to keep it moist. Bees happily eat properly administered fondant all winter, even when water collection is impossible.

Bees carrying a lot of water is often an indication that they are reconstituting their own stores.

Time to feed? Well you are in the south and you are always about 3 weeks ahead of us, and our own bees, where it is available, have been taking down syrup for the last few days. We can still get some cold spells yet when they will not go for syrup, so it depends in a way just how desperate your bees are. If they are in an actual immediate food crisis and there is a risk of a cold snap then more fondant directly on top of the cluster is the way to go. If not a dire emergency then syrup will propbably be OK, as we are into March and any snaps from now on will probably be short. If you are worried about the cold syrup in a frame feeder then administer it warm. Either way it will soon be at the ambient temperature of the position in the hive anyway.

Any advice I can give on frame feeders must be taken with the understanding that we never use them anyway.

Also, they WILL eat properly applied fondant to raise brood in colder spells once they are looking to start building up. Pollen is actually more critical, but you seem to have that covered. Saw bees on Sunday during our spring conference that ONLY get fondant feeding ever, and were well into active build up. The fondant was bagged, in direct contact on the top bars, and most crucially with plenty overhead insulation. In parts of Scandinavia fondant is routinely fed for brood rearing purposes during summer dearths.
 
One other thing to remember is the bees need to keep any brood at 35*C and a quick peek as we call it could be enough to chill the brood.

Here in Sussex, and I only saw 2 colonies with a smattering of eggs... I am hoping the other 10 are ok- queens seen in most- just one rubbish and doomed. Difficult to type with crossed fingers!!
All have fondant and Neopoll on, water nearby... cannot do more. Patience doesnt come easy to me!!!:chillpill:
 
if it were not for the fact that they are out of stores would you commence 'spring feeding' now!

No, of course not. Why feed if they have more than sufficient stores? I may supply water (as a dilute sugar syrup, initially), but see no point whatsoever (for several reasons) in feeding them copious amounts of carbohydrate (particularly) if there is loads of the stuff in the hive already.
 
One other thing to remember is the bees need to keep any brood at 35*C and a quick peek as we call it could be enough to chill the brood.

Here in Sussex, and I only saw 2 colonies with a smattering of eggs... I am hoping the other 10 are ok- queens seen in most- just one rubbish and doomed. Difficult to type with crossed fingers!!
All have fondant and Neopoll on, water nearby... cannot do more. Patience doesnt come easy to me!!!:chillpill:

Hi Heather,
Saw your other comment about feeding 1:1 today. Have you cancelled it then?
 
if it were not for the fact that they are out of stores would you commence 'spring feeding' now!

No, of course not. Why feed if they have more than sufficient stores? I may supply water (as a dilute sugar syrup, initially), but see no point whatsoever (for several reasons) in feeding them copious amounts of carbohydrate (particularly) if there is loads of the stuff in the hive already.

Hi again,
They don't have any stores at all. Used the two arches they had set up on brood. Sorry, did not express myself properly, but would you commence 1:1 syrup feeding in those circumstances or are you happy with just fondant?
 
What is your mean temp for the last week/2weeks? Is it rising? Helps to have some information to make good decisions.
 
One other thing to remember is the bees need to keep any brood at 35*C and a quick peek as we call it could be enough to chill the brood.

This is something I hear a lot.

Sure bees raise brood at above 30C.

However, lots of beeks inspect on days when the air temperature is below 30C.
Without damage.

Air at 15C or air at 12C isn't any great difference.
Wind chill and solar gain could easily account for more difference in what the brood might experience.

The cooler it might be, the more important it is to minimise the time that the brood box is open.
Which is why there are guidelines and rules-of-thumb -- but these are not immutably critical thresholds.

Use common sense (if you have it), rather than 'rules'.
 
Registering 15d yesterday and already at 10 today... bees out, pollen coming in...queen having a *** and coffee, I think!

I have left fondant on at the mo but some hives hardly any stores. 5/6 frames bees and fairly calm on inspection, so they seem to think hive ok, Q wise.

The very light ones I feel it is warm enough to put syrup in, but slightly thicker than 1:1 as water plentiful for them nearby.
 
Use common sense (if you have it), rather than 'rules'.

:iagree:

When bees are clustered you know it's too cold to do anything except maybe give them fondant. When they aren't clustered you can do more if you need to. Brood won't chill if you work quickly.
 
if it were not for the fact that they are out of stores would you commence 'spring feeding' now!

No, of course not. Why feed if they have more than sufficient stores? I may supply water (as a dilute sugar syrup, initially), but see no point whatsoever (for several reasons) in feeding them copious amounts of carbohydrate (particularly) if there is loads of the stuff in the hive already.

I dont agree.
With bees its often more about income than capitol.
Seeing some of the small clusters in my colonies now, I think I missed a trick last summer and they would be looking much better now if I had given them a steady feed from about June right through to winter, despite them having sufficient stores all along.
 
if it were not for the fact that they are out of stores would you commence 'spring feeding' now!

Some beekeepers give pollen substitute in the spring.
 
Last edited:
A lot of questions and a lot of variables in that post, and it also brings a question about how you are feeding the fondant.

The correct way to feed fondant is in such a way that the actual water released by the bees themselves, rising in the warmer air from the cluster, both condenses on, and is hygroscopically absorbed by, the working face (the bit the bees are at) of the fondant. This gives adequate water on its own. Fondant can be fed 'open', as in not covered by polythene, in the active months as the taking of it will be faster than the drying out will be, but in winter it must have a water vapour proof layer above, and preferably all round apart from the access cut on the underside, to keep it moist. Bees happily eat properly administered fondant all winter, even when water collection is impossible.

Bees carrying a lot of water is often an indication that they are reconstituting their own stores.

Time to feed? Well you are in the south and you are always about 3 weeks ahead of us, and our own bees, where it is available, have been taking down syrup for the last few days. We can still get some cold spells yet when they will not go for syrup, so it depends in a way just how desperate your bees are. If they are in an actual immediate food crisis and there is a risk of a cold snap then more fondant directly on top of the cluster is the way to go. If not a dire emergency then syrup will propbably be OK, as we are into March and any snaps from now on will probably be short. If you are worried about the cold syrup in a frame feeder then administer it warm. Either way it will soon be at the ambient temperature of the position in the hive anyway.

Any advice I can give on frame feeders must be taken with the understanding that we never use them anyway.

Also, they WILL eat properly applied fondant to raise brood in colder spells once they are looking to start building up. Pollen is actually more critical, but you seem to have that covered. Saw bees on Sunday during our spring conference that ONLY get fondant feeding ever, and were well into active build up. The fondant was bagged, in direct contact on the top bars, and most crucially with plenty overhead insulation. In parts of Scandinavia fondant is routinely fed for brood rearing purposes during summer dearths.

Hi ITLD,
Thank you for your very full and informative answers as always. How desperate are my bees? Well, that's what I would like to know. They have no stores left in comb, two sides of capped brood circumferences roughly size of a large orange. Fondant situation as per your instructions.
'Bees carrying a lot of water is often an indication that they are reconstituting their own stores.' Well, they have got none. So, they must be reconstituting the fondant? Some people say they store fondant, but the jury is out on that one. What's your view on this? It makes sense from my observations in the hive.
Apparently, Royal Jelly contains up to 70% water and all young larvae gets that for three days, so that's a lot of water. Beebread contains 14-17%. Fondant has 10-15% water. If I don't feed 1:1 syrup then they have to rely on the hive for the water? Silly question, but if it's already in there why do they go out for it? Syrup would be in a frame feeder.
Forcast temps for next 16 days as follows: 13, 11, 12, 7, 1, 1, 5, 7, 7, 6, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 - below average for March. Don't know how accurate that is.
They have been out since eight this morning collecting water and large pollen baskets going in. I did not see any eggs or larvae when I inspected (but tried to be quick), so are they building up for another brood cycle. Can they afford an aborted brood cycle with the energy spent/or will they be ok without the 1:1. Actually, if I put warm 1:1 in the hive they will have finished it before the forecast cold weather.
Second, hive I inspected had rearranged their stores top arcs gone all stores along one side. What's going on there then? No pollen/no brood. Not been out as much as other hives, QS. I forecast ornamental cherry and the like a week away. Heyho
 
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