Thymol mix, lecithin substitute ???

[shudderdun]

Just ordered some Thymol crystals to make up a "mix" to add to a syrup feed.
I have looked at a couple of recipeies, it states for the small "mix" I am going to make up, I only need to add one teaspoon of lecithin.
As I understand it, the lecithin is added as an imulsifier, so, as I will only need one teaspoon of lecithin for this "mix" I have no idea what I can use the rest for apart from the obvious it is intended, i.e. human consumption.
Is there anything else I can use in its place that I can purchase in smaller quantities that will do the same job.
Many Thanks.

 

[Ian123]

To be honest it’s not expensive however used the thymol mix for many years minus the lecithin, not saying it’s as good but works for me.

 

[shudderdun]

To be honest it’s not expensive however used the thymol mix for many years minus the lecithin, not saying it’s as good but works for me.

Thanks for your reply Ian123 much appreciated, it's not the cost, its just I hate to see waste.
Thanks.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just ordered some Thymol crystals to make up a "mix" to add to a syrup feed.
I have looked at a couple of recipeies, it states for the small "mix" I am going to make up, I only need to add one teaspoon of lecithin.
As I understand it, the lecithin is added as an imulsifier, so, as I will only need one teaspoon of lecithin for this "mix" I have no idea what I can use the rest for apart from the obvious it is intended, i.e. human consumption.
Is there anything else I can use in its place that I can purchase in smaller quantities that will do the same job.
Many Thanks.

Eat it. It’s good for you
Share it out amongst your beekeeping friends
Freeze it in small portions
Send the remainder to beefriendly

 

[Beefriendly]

Send the remainder to beefriendly

Now Now!
I have no use for the stuff

 

[Millet]

I made two batches..both ended different..the one with the emulsifying product is like curdled milk and constantly needs warming up.. the one without Lecithin tends to stay the same as first mixed but does the same job.

 

[Walrus]

I made two batches..both ended different..the one with the emulsifying product is like curdled milk and constantly needs warming up.. the one without Lecithin tends to stay the same as first mixed but does the same job.

Oh...that doesn't sound right. Mine is just a white liquid with a strong thymol smell. No curdles.

By the way, I was reading a bit of Honey Farming by Manley yesterday and noticed this (page 133/134):

"Of course, if one could always feed slowly, a pint or two a day, the ferment trouble would not arise, but in bee farming on any scale it is not possible to do this, and heavy feeding does sometimes result in leaving some stores unsealed in the outer combs, in which they are liable to ferment. A slight addition of thymol will quite prevent this. Thymol is made up and used as follows:

dissolve one ounce of thymol crystals in five fluid ounces of surgical alcohol. Use half a fluid ounce of this mixture to 112lbs sugar in 7 gallons of water."

That was published in 1946. I suppose the lecithin idea is a refinement that has been made since then.

 

[Swarm]

Should look a bit like Milk of Magnesia.

 

[Beefriendly]

That was published in 1946. I suppose the lecithin idea is a refinement that has been made since then.

No...me thinks the lecithin is a total red herring, not a refinement. If you read any of the scientific papers that used thymol to investigate it's effect on nosema infections; non use any emulsifying agents (e.g. lecithin). They simply dissolve the thymol in alcohol to aid it's solubility in water (and fondant in one study). Which is exactly what I've been saying in several threads. Thymol is water soluble at the concentrations it is used at. The alcohol allows you to make a concentrated stock to dilute into your syrup.

Adding lecithin is not good for bees anyway, as higher protein levels in their diet mean they need to defecate more often during the winter. In mild winters fine, but in a bad one can lead to dysentery within the hive.

But what the hell... facts have never seemed to stop beekeepers doing unnecessary things and if adding lecithin to your thymol mixture ticks your box..... do it....Personally I have it down as yet another of those deeply entrenched beekeeping myths.

But it is certainly worth reading the methods used by the scientists who have described the efficiency of thymol administered to Nosema infected bees first. No lecithin was used or needed in any experiment.
Here's links to a couple of papers that are easily accessible.

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/02/m09043/m09043.html

https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2008/04/m07071.pdf

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That was published in 1946. I suppose the lecithin idea is a refinement that has been made since then.

No...me thinks the lecithin is a total red herring, not a refinement.....Personally I have it down as yet another of those deeply entrenched beekeeping myths.

You'd better ask Hivemaker - it's his 'refinement' and after the amount of research he did on the subject he'll be able to tell you the rationale.

 

[SDM]

Adding lecithin is not good for bees anyway, as higher protein levels in their diet mean they need to defecate more often during the winter. In mild winters fine, but in a bad one can lead to dysentery within the hive.

]

And you think 4g of lecithin in approximately 175 litres of syrup is going to cause dysentery?

 

[Beefriendly]

And you think 4g of lecithin in approximately 175 litres of syrup is going to cause dysentery?

I think lecithin is totally unnecessary in a thymol syrup.

 

[SDM]

All I can say is that before adding lecithin, I used to find a thymol tide line in all my feeders suggesting it doesn't stay in solution and floats on top of the syrup.
I don't get it when I use lecithin

 

[Beefriendly]

You'd better ask Hivemaker - it's his 'refinement' and after the amount of research he did on the subject he'll be able to tell you the rationale.

The rational Mr. Jenkins is that most batches of thymol are contaminated with Thyme oil (from which thymol is derived.... and vice versa). This floats to the top (as any oil does) and gives the impression of the thymol not being fully dissolved. Hence an emulsion to distribute the thyme oil throughout the syrup.
HM is a very good beekeeper but not infallible. The chemistry I've quoted is correct, the effect on of thymol on nosema does not require lecithin, as has been shown in several peer reviewed papers. You can chose not believe peer reviewed science as you wish, I know many of you already do.

If you still chose to insist on adding lecithin, be my guest. IMHO you are adding a totally unnecessary step for the treatment or prevention of nosema.
And if you wish only to use thymol to prevent any fungal/moulds growing in your syrup lecithin is totally unnecessary.

I've just pulled some of last years containers out of my bee shed and they still have some syrup in them, not mouldy or discoloured and NO lecithin was ever added.

What I suggest is you try some without your protein and see what happens.

 

[Beefriendly]

All I can say is that before adding lecithin, I used to find a thymol tide line in all my feeders suggesting it doesn't stay in solution and floats on top of the syrup.
I don't get it when I use lecithin

That is caused by thyme oil....not thymol. I've not seen it in mine presumably because the thymol I've bought was purer than most, so less contaminated with thyme oil.

 

[shudderdun]

Many thanks to "all" for contributing to my post, all very interesting, such knowledge.
Thank you !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

200 litres of invert mixed just over 12 months ago - some used a month or so ago, the rest checked last weekend, no mould, no tideline, still smells of thymol, bees are fine.

 

[Beefriendly]

200 litres of invert mixed just over 12 months ago - some used a month or so ago, the rest checked last weekend, no mould, no tideline, still smells of thymol, bees are fine.

You would have found exactly the same if you had added no lecithin.

 

[Erichalfbee]

These thymol posts( and I'm as guilty as anybody else) are driving a lot of folk nuts.
There's a sticky
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1840