Supercedure?

[Boston Bees]

You keep saying larvae in the QC; do you mean one larva or several? There shouldn't be several in one QC.

Seriously?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Born in 2017 marked 2018.

If we accept that she was born in 2017 then it would be normal for the bees to swarm to replace her by 2020.

However, the mnemonic Will You Raise Good Bees tells us that she was born in 2018, provided the beekeeper followed the international code of white, yellow, red, green and blue.

If she was born in 2017 and marked in spring 2018 the colour used should have been yellow.

Either way, expect supersedure this season or swarming in 2022.

 

[Beelosser]

Source of bees & queen?

Sorry I thought you were asking about the Queen I mentioned nearly swarmed last year. She was two years old, the one I am concerned about is her daughter. Born August 2020 open mated

 

[ericbeaumont]

first year queen and laying well, but not prolific

Yes, I got lost along the way.

Likely answer to swarming of a younger Q lies in Hemo's post 9, but also heed his post 2, in which he recommended clipping the Q.

If they swarm on supersedure, which they may do in the swarm season, you'll lose the clipped Q but won't risk losing the bees until the first virgin emerges.

What prevents you finding the queen?

 

[Amari]

When I say non prolific I mean not jam packed. She lays nicely but at each inspection there seems to be as much brood hatched as new layers.
[/QUOTE

I assumed superceedure even though it is a first year queen and laying well, but not prolific.

I agree, not a real attempt at a QC, supersedure or otherwise.

****** PS: it's supersedure and bees emerge.**********

Let's not be too anal.
English is as it is written and spoken. We write 'I practise' but 'the practice'. Also 'intercede' and 'accede'. If Oliver90owner writes 'supercedure' it must be right, Shirley? (QUOTE="oliver90owner, post: 774012, member: 964"]: "Supercedure cells are normally good ones, so are you really sure it was one? Sure it wasn’t a large drone cell? Supercedure cells ar usually on the face of the frame, not in it.")

 

[Amari]

When I say non prolific I mean not jam packed. She lays nicely but at each inspection there seems to be as much brood hatched as new layers. Went to double brood when she had about 6 full frames of brood because we had had a terrible spring and there was a week of great weather on the way and I wasn’t going to be able to inspect for at least 10 days. Attached is a picture of QC

Hi I would value some advice. Last week I found a capped queen cell on the face of a frame. It was the only one and I am sure they hadn’t swarmed. I assumed superceedure even though it is a first year queen and laying well, but not prolific.

I agree, not a real attempt at a QC, supersedure or otherwise.
***PS: it's supersedure and bees emerge.****
[/QUOTE

Let's not be too anal.
English is as it is written and spoken. We write 'I practise' but 'the practice'. Also 'intercede' and 'accede'. If Oliver90owner writes 'supercedure' it must be right, Shirley? (QUOTE="oliver90owner, post: 774012, member: 964"]: "Supercedure cells are normally good ones,

 

[ericbeaumont]

Eh? Have we entered the twilight zone? Check this out. Plenty more sources out there to confirm that your faith in O90O as an arbiter of spelling is misplaced and that on this occasion, he's mistaken.

 

[user 819]

As the QC has been knocked back, wait 6 or 7 days and see what they do, if more QC's then do the utmost to find the Q. For insurance make up a nuc with her if you have enough bees. If you leave Q & QC,s the likelihood is high they may swarm thus depleting colony numbers.

If in 6 in or 7 days time you find more or another QC you should be able to age it dependant on if sealed or unsealed. A sealed cell will likely mean it is 9 or 10 days old and unsealed cell 6 - 8 days old depending on the larva size.
Then one will have a more exact date of when she will emerge. One can leave 2 or 3 cells to develop until day 13 or 14 when then it is a best to select just one nice cell and either harness the others or destroy them.

 

[user 819]

With QC's one has to be able to assess the cell age easier with larva to do then once it is sealed. Remember the larva stage is only 6 days and on the larva sixth day it is sealed to be come a 9 day QC ( 3 days eggs 7 six days larva). Once this point is reached a new VQ will emerge usually 6 days later.

Dating a larva isn't to hard, 1 day old royal jelly will be seen in the base though larva might bee hard to see 2 - 3 days larva is seen, 3 -6 days the size will be quite a good size to a very plump looking. There are books with diagrams to show the day and size of larva and once you can recognise the aging side one can be more certain of when to act on QC's esp if leaving more then one.

Another tip is to mark the good QC's with a drawing pin pressed into the top bar above it's position so you know the location to find it.

 

[Beelosser]

Yes, I got lost along the way.

Likely answer to swarming of a younger Q lies in Hemo's post 9, but also heed his post 2, in which he recommended clipping the Q.

If they swarm on supersedure, which they may do in the swarm season, you'll lose the clipped Q but won't risk losing the bees until the first virgin emerges.

What prevents you finding the queen?

I’m just useless that’s all, no excuse

 

[user 819]

I’m just useless that’s all, no excuse

Being a bit harsh on one self perhaps, it may take time until you are happier in recognising and dealing with events in the hive.
With regards to Q's & QC's.
1. it is worth having a nuc box of some type with frames in at inspections.
2. If QC's found use the nuc to place the frame with the Q in, one can then select a nice looking open QC or two to mark and remove all others.
3.When QC's are found, not to instantly panic and knock them back. Though if a Q is laying well and one is short of time useful as one off for a few days.
4. Practice and use two useful AS methods to deal with issues, a nuc for the Q is one, another may be a colony/Pagden AS or on a strong colony before swarming signs are seen a Demaree/rolling Demaree.

 

[oliver90owner]

No Latin in schools anymore

I’m going back to my Latin School next month. Motto: Alle May God Amende - the motto from 1471 (although the school was nearly 50 years old by then).

Amo, Amare, Amavi, Amatus and blum blum blum bli blo blo, bla bla bla blorum blis blis is probably most of what I can remember (and, yes, I knlow I left out the ‘el’) from about 60 years ago!

On the supercedure, I’ll give up - I would have expected the queen to have been long gone by now. Leaving 6-7 days is asking for a swarm already gone, as they might well build on a young larva and be gone in 3-4 days.

Also, from the net: Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing.

 

[Spadger]

My recollection was
Caesar adsum jam forte
Brutus adsum tu
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic in at

I learned similar, but ...
Caesar adsum jam forte
Pompei aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Pompei inis at

 

[ericbeaumont]

Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing.

The full online quote is as follows: Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing. It continues, however, to be widely regarded as an error.

Variant decline since 1800 has led to 12:1 use in favour of supersede, as the link above describes.

Let's get back to the root, which shows that the original Latin included an S, and that C was an abomination introduced by the French and English in the Middle Ages: supercede - Wiktionary

 

[Amari]

The full online quote is as follows: Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing. It continues, however, to be widely regarded as an error.

Variant decline since 1800 has led to 12:1 use in favour of supersede, as the link above describes.

Let's get back to the root, which shows that the original Latin included an S, and that C was an abomination introduced by the French and English in the Middle Ages: supercede - Wiktionary

I concede, but both your learned sources state that supersede is a verb. We beekeepers, rightly or wrongly, also use it as a noun eg. 'the supers(c)edure last week has failed'. That's why I've been accustomed to writing it the same as 'I practise' & 'the practice'. Maybe we beeks invent nouns: in a recent post on here I described a recent English-usage article in the Times describing the use of the verb 'to eke'. I wrote to the author pointing out that it is also a noun. He replied that he was 'unaware'.

 

[gmonag]

The worst offence, in my opinion, is the "shook swarm"; not withstanding the merits or otherwise of the procedure, it should be a "shaken swarm".

(Unless it was first used by the famous German beekeeper, Herr Schuck.)

 

[user 20297]

Also, from the net: Supercede has occurred as a spelling variant of supersede since the 17th century, and it is common in current published writing.

Variant decline since 1800 has led to 12:1 use in favour of supersede,.............

If we are to accept that the correct way to spell a word is to adopt the way in which it is most frequently spelled (spelt?), some of us older folk will need to go back to school to unlearn what we were taught by rote. I suspect that "supercedure" is not a word which is used very frequently other than in beekeeping discussion. "Supercedure" looks right to me and I will continue to use it. I can't reasonably argue with any dictionary, but since "to cede" is to surrender, when it is used with the word super (implying "greater than" or "better than" or "to overcome"), the word supercede carries the combined meaning of what happens in a colony of bees; the old queen eventually relinquishes power (cedes) or is killed, and in one way or another, the new queen overcomes and betters (batters?) the old.

Whose queens "accsede" to the throne?

 

[ericbeaumont]

since "to cede" is to surrender, when it is used with the word super (implying "greater than" or "better than" or "to overcome")

This excerpt from the link above explains where one might be led astray:

• The form supercede is commonly considered a misspelling of supersede, since it results from confusion between Latin cēdere (“to give up, yield”) and sedēre (“to sit”).[1] The original Latin word was supersedēre (“to sit above”), which continued in Italian as soprassedere, but the c spelling began to be used in Middle French, appeared in English as early as the 1400s, and is still sometimes found. The fact that supersede is the only English word ending in -sede, while several end in -cede, also encourages confusion.

 

[user 20297]

This excerpt from the link above explains where one might be led astray:

• The form supercede is commonly considered a misspelling of supersede, since it results from confusion between Latin cēdere (“to give up, yield”) and sedēre (“to sit”).[1] The original Latin word was supersedēre (“to sit above”), which continued in Italian as soprassedere, but the c spelling began to be used in Middle French, appeared in English as early as the 1400s, and is still sometimes found. The fact that supersede is the only English word ending in -sede, while several end in -cede, also encourages confusion.

Fair point, but the dictionary taking umbrage at a spelling/misspelling which appeared "as early as the 1400s" seems not to be in the spirit of accepting the way that language develops. We'd better keep policing this; a new thread on the go today and....

It's not unusual following a supercedure.

 

[Amari]

The worst offence, in my opinion, is the "shook swarm"; not withstanding the merits or otherwise of the procedure, it should be a "shaken swarm".

(Unless it was first used by the famous German beekeeper, Herr Schuck.)

An Americanism maybe?