Supercedure or second swarm?

[jolson]

This is our first year beekeeping, my daughter and I. We got a nuc at the end of April, and was told it was going to swarm soon. We split the colony right away, but a week later the hive with the queen and fliers swarmed anyway. We lost the swarm.

Both parts of the split made new queens. By mid-June, both queens had mated and were laying. Both colonies seem to be doing well, but one of them (the half that had swarmed) is starting to make some queen cells.

We saw 3 last Sunday, one had a larva in it, but we accidentally damaged it, so we removed it. Today, there are 3 new cells with larva in them; all on different (adjoining) frames, 2 on the edge of the frame and 1 in the middle. There is also a few more empty cups.

This hive is a 14x12, has 8 frames of comb, and 3 empty frames they can build on. Two weekends ago we added a super, because they looked like they were putting a lot of stores in the brood box. They've got lots of space, but they don’t seem to be in any great rush to build comb (maybe 2 14x12 frames in the last month, and nothing in the super in the last 10 days). The few original frames from the nuc were standard National frames, and they have no problems building comb hanging from the bottom of those. There is still space for the queen to lay in. There is lots of capped brood, some eggs and some larva, but they seem to be more focussed on making stores.

What I'm trying to work out is if this colony is going to try to swarm again, or if it is a supercedure. After dealing with a swarming colony in our first week of beekeeping, we might be a little overly concerned. With a laying queen and space to expand, is there any reason why this colony should swarm again, especially at this point in the year and 8 weeks after the first swarm?

Also, the queen is marked, but not clipped. Should we be clipping her, and if so, can someone point to some clear instructions on how much to clip the wings. I've done birds, but never a bee. I've read that too much can make to colony consider her damaged, and that there is a blood supply to part of the wings that needs to be avoided.

Cheers

John

 

[Erichalfbee]

Swarm cells can be anywhere, any number and are of varying ages. Supersedure cells can be anywhere, are the same age and usually one or two. Does that help you identify what those cells might be?
Some bees just like to swarm

 

[enrico]

If you have one good hive then you can do what you like with this one depending on what your plans are. Make a few nucs up with the queen cells, AS again, have a play and see what works best for you. Remember there is more money for bees than for honey! I would suggest the least you need to do is AS them. Some bees will just keep swarming, make sure you give them plenty of room and now you know what they are like make sure you check properly for queen cells every seven days.
Good luck
E

 

[Swarm]

Hello John,
Sorry to say it but that nuc should never have been offered if it was about to swarm, especially to new beekeepers. Obviously the beekeeper knew his bees as they certainly sound like swarmy stock. Re queening may be a better option.

 

[colinc]

My bees swarmed twice in my first year and I ended up with 3 hives. I got AS slightly mixed and it didn't stop swarm fever. Nuc in late April swarmed early June and Mid July so yes they may swarm again. They are not swarmy stock as AS (done properly to a method) this year and they have not swarmed this year..... yet.

Good luck and check your AS method.


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[jolson]

Swarm cells can be anywhere, any number and are of varying ages. Supersedure cells can be anywhere, are the same age and usually one or two. Does that help you identify what those cells might be?
Some bees just like to swarm

The cells have all appeared since Sunday, but some are further along than others. I couldn't see the larva well enough to see what stage they are at.

I would suggest the least you need to do is AS them. Some bees will just keep swarming, make sure you give them plenty of room and now you know what they are like make sure you check properly for queen cells every seven days.

The bees have plenty of room, and we do check them weekly.

My bees swarmed twice in my first year and I ended up with 3 hives. I got AS slightly mixed and it didn't stop swarm fever. Nuc in late April swarmed early June and Mid July so yes they may swarm again. They are not swarmy stock as AS (done properly to a method) this year and they have not swarmed this year..... yet.

I was hoping not to have 3 hives so quickly. Its becoming more expensive to raise bees than to raise children! It sounds like a second swarm at this time of year isn't unusual. What AS method is the preferred method (am I opening a can of worms here?). When we split the hive the week after we got it, I had someone from the local club come down to help. We put the queen and the foraging bees in one hive, house bees in the other, and split up the brood/stores between them. We put some house bees in with the queen to help tend to her and take care of any hatching brood. The hive with mostly house bees was moved a 1/4 mile up the road. The hive with the queen swarmed a few days later. After thinking about it a bit more, I'm questioning whether keeping the queen and the foraging/flying bees together was the right approach, especially if they are swarmy.

Sorry to say it but that nuc should never have been offered if it was about to swarm, especially to new beekeepers. Re queening may be a better option.

It might be an option. The bees are local Cornish bees and getting a similar queen might be difficult. I might be able to do something with the second hive (which shows no sign of swarming - yet). I am considering letting this just run its course, as it could still be supercedure. I'm also thinking about making some isolation cages for the queen cells so I can check the new queen is dark before letting her loose in the hive. A little more than half of the brood from the swarmy hive are partly orange; the non-swarmy hive is all dark.

The other issue which I haven't mentioned is that the swarmy hive is near my house, so it's near other houses and gardens as well; it mostly works, but its not really the best place for them to swarm. What I'm going to do tonight is block up the entrance and move them up the road to where the other hive is. I'll keep them confined to quarters until Sunday, so they re-orient themselves. I'll have a look then to see where they're at with the queen cells. If they do decide to swarm, at least it won't be into someone's garden. I've got a couple of supers and a floor that I could cobble together into a temporary hive. Is it worth setting something up near the other hives in the hope that a swarm might take residence there?

Cheers

John

 

[colinc]

Hope this works

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf


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[colinc]

You need to use a respected authors method and follow it to the letter. If you don't have another hive consider a demaree. If you miss a step or confuse two methods in your AS it may fail, that was my mistake. This is why it is easier to look a method up and follow to the letter.
If you shut bees in for the next 3 days you may cook them, it would be preferable to move 3 miles and then move back later. 1/4 mile may lead to all fliers returning home anyway.
If you have 2 supers, stack them to make an over height brood box put the queen, some emerging brood frames, some stores and some foundation and move that hive 1/4 mile be prepared to feed it and leave the foragers where they are in the old box would work as a split. Squish the old queen in 3 weeks when you have a laying proven daughter in the original hive and recombine.
Buy more boxes [emoji6][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219][emoji219]

You still have the 1/4 mile site difference issue though

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[jolson]

Hope this works

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

It did work.

The booklet shows the different type of queen cells, but I guess my bees haven't read the book. Until I can find some image hosting so I can post some pictures, I would say more swarm than supercedure, but its not clearly one or the other by any means.

Cheers

John

 

[colinc]

A queen cell is a queen cell. Numbers count. If there is one it is almost certainly supercedure but not always. If there are loads it is swarm cells, if there are 2 or 3 you take your chances of a swarm if you leave them thinking they are supercedure cells.


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[jolson]

If you shut bees in for the next 3 days you may cook them, it would be preferable to move 3 miles and then move back later. 1/4 mile may lead to all fliers returning home anyway.
If you have 2 supers, stack them to make an over height brood box put the queen, some emerging brood frames, some stores and some foundation and move that hive 1/4 mile be prepared to feed it and leave the foragers where they are in the old box would work as a split. Squish the old queen in 3 weeks when you have a laying proven daughter in the original hive and recombine.

I did consider the temperature inside the hive. Its a poly hive (don't know if that makes any difference) with an open mesh floor. It's got 1/4 of the brood box with empty frames, and an empty super, all for what can't be much more than a half a box of bees. They've got a fair sized space to heat up. The only difference between the closed up hive and how it normally sits is that I've closed up the 100x8mm entrance, and propped open the crownboard by 3.5mm. Arguably there is more opened area in the hive now than there normally is. The 1/4 mile site is near the top of a hill and it's breezier than where the hive normally sat. Weather here for the next few days is cloudy, breezy, and about 17-18 degrees. In the morning, I might lift the roof off and put a bit of mesh over the 3" hole in the crownboard. That'll give them more ventilation than they'e ever had.

Come Sunday, it looks like there's going to have to be some sort of split. There's still time to consider the options, but I think if I'm seeing bees coming back to the old location on Sunday, I will put the makeshift hive there with some brood, nurse bees, and the queen cells, and let them get on with raising a new queen, keeping the old queen in the hive up the road. If they do re-orient themselves, then a split like you've suggested is probably the way to go, and that will be at the 1/4 mile site.

 

[Madge]

...When we split the hive the week after we got it, I had someone from the local club come down to help. We put the queen and the foraging bees in one hive, house bees in the other, and split up the brood/stores between them. ...

John

Splitting the brood between the two colonies was probably a mistake. You did not manage to fool the mother colony into thinking they've swarmed. They do not expect to find brood in their new home.

At most, move only the comb on which the queen had been found (but I have been advised by a good beekeeper to add no brood whatsoever).

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[Swarm]

Splitting the brood between the two colonies was probably a mistake. You did not manage to fool the mother colony into thinking they've swarmed. They do not expect to find brood in their new home.

At most, move only the comb on which the queen had been found (but I have been advised by a good beekeeper to add no brood whatsoever).

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I agree, splitting the colony does not switch off swarm mode it simply checks it and they will swarm later. There again even carrying out swarm prevention by whatever method, to the letter doesn't guarantee success.

 

[jolson]

Well it’s all done.

On Thursday I moved the hive a ¼ mile up the road.

On Saturday night, about dusk, we covered the landing board with small branches and ferns, and removed the wood blocking the entrance. The bees were quick to find their way out, and they started doing some re-orientation (flying in circles and side to side while facing the entrance), but probably because of the fading light they didn't go far.

This morning about 10:00 there was a clump of about 300 bees at the old site (going on the ratio of 300 bees=1/2 cup). At the ¼ mile site, we inspected the hive and found the queen, 5 charged queen cells, and one capped queen cell. There were a small number of dead bees in the bottom of the hive, but not more than would be expected to die of natural causes over 2 days.

We did an artificial swarm using a temporary hive made from 2 supers, leaving the queen, ½ frame of partially built comb, and 1 frame of stores in the location of the old hive (at the new site... this is really confusing to write). The frame of stores had a small amount of patchy capped brood, no eggs or larva seen; it was the least brood-y comb we could find. There was also a handful of bees that went in with the queen; it was impossible to exclude them. The hive with the queen cells and house bees was moved about 4 meters away and we put the branches and ferns back in front.

There were bees around the front of both hives, but no sign of them mixing. There were bees returning from foraging that flew directly for the temporary hive.

This evening, as the light started to fade, we set up a super with some empty frames (that used to be mounted on the hive) at the old location, where there were still about 300 bees. The bees either marched straight in, or stayed fanning at the entrance for a while. When they were all in, we took these bees up to the ¼ mile site and put the super on top of the temporary hive, with a bit of newspaper between them. I don’t know if the newspaper will have any effect, but the extra effort might help them re-orient themselves; its certainly not going to hurt them.

Activity in front of both hives looked good. When we put the super on, a healthy number of bees came out to see what we were doing. We’ll check again tomorrow at the old location to see how many bees are still returning there.

I'd call the move a success. We'll have to wait and see how the 2 resultant hives get on. I think we'd like to combine them again at some point, but we've got time to figure that out.

Cheers

John

 

[Madge]

Well it’s all done.

On Thursday I moved the hive a ¼ mile up the road.

On Saturday night, ... removed the wood blocking the entrance. The bees were quick to find their way out ...

At the ¼ mile site, we inspected the hive and found the queen, 5 charged queen cells, and one capped queen cell....

We did an artificial swarm ...leaving the queen ...in the location of the old hive (at the new site... this is really confusing to write). ...

[This morning about 10:00 there was a clump of about 300 bees at the old site ...]​

The hive with the queen cells and house bees was moved about 4 meters away and we put the branches and ferns back in front. ...

...

John

Why did you feel it was necessary to move the colony a 1/4 mile away from the main apiary for an artificial swarm (resulting in foraging bees returning to the home apiary)?

With an artificial swarm you make use of the fact that foraging bees return to the mother colony - so, you should have left the mother colony where she was, and move the daughter colony (the one with the queen cells) just to the side. That's all.

 

[jolson]

Why did you feel it was necessary to move the colony a 1/4 mile away from the main apiary for an artificial swarm (resulting in foraging bees returning to the home apiary)?

The 1/4 mile move wasn't anything to do with artificial swarm. The hive was located near my house, near to other houses and gardens. The colony swarmed there just after we got it, and I didn't want to go through that again. The 1/4 mile site is in the back of some allotments, surrounded by fields; a much better place to be if they do decide to swarm.

I checked the original site by my house a few minutes ago, and there were no bees at all there. Hopefully that means they're all re-oriented themselves to the new location.