Strange happenings after a swarm

[MMJ100]

Hello,
I am looking for some advise.

Last Friday 6th I had a swarm in my garden close to the one hive that I have there. (my other 6 are elsewhere)
It was the only day in 7 that was not cloudy and a little rainy.
This hive has more than survived the winter and has been extremly active. On sunny days (not many at all) I have counted several times over 10 pollen entries in 10 seconds. This has been going on for over a month. I did not go in as the temp was so low. But it appeared that all was more than well.
In fact I had been preparing to do my first split on this hive...

So on Friday within 20 meters there was a swarm. I assumed that it came from the only hive I have here.
My friend and I captured and successully transfered it into a hive box, where it still is. You can see pics at MMJBeeTwo (Google that to see my blog)

I had read that I must feed a swarm and thought that the orig. hive would actually need more feedling. Over two days (cloudy and rainy) I watched and saw that the orig. hive was carrying on as usual - ie a lot of activity - pollen arriving when it was brighter.
Whereas the new (swarmed hive) was firtly not so active, but then got more active. Flights were somewaht increased this morning on day three, But no pollen ( I saw 2 entries). I had put 2 inch by one inch of candie in on Friday evening.

So I thought today I would put in some more. The temp was 13/14 C and cloudy. Not ideal but I thought they needed feeling. I quickly went in, they were occupying about 6/10 frames and I put the suger there and left very quickly.

Then I thought that the old hive might need food. So I quickly opened it and put the same amount of candie in.

I was astonished to see a very full hive. I mean 8 frames on 10 were certainly well occupied and the hive looked so full I could not believe that the colony in the past few days had lost a huge swarm.

So did the swarm come from somewhere else?
Why is "the old colony" carrying on as normal?
I saw something today that I did not expect.
I fed the orig hive although I do not think it was necessary.

Thank you for your help and experience,

Michael

 

[Finman]

.
Put it into a hive and foundations that it feels that it makess a new nest with new combs.

Of course the colony must be feeded if they do not get food from nature.

Give to it first 5 liter 1:1 syrup. Then give next 5 litres 1:2 syrup stored as food.
Half of sugar they will use to produce wax.

You may give varroa treatment to the swarm.

.

 

[Finman]

I was astonished to see a very full hive. I mean 8 frames on 10 were certainly well occupied and the hive looked so full I could not believe that the colony in the past few days had lost a huge swarm.

If they do not have capped queen cells, it does not have swarmed

It hives has eggs after 3 days, it does not have swarmed

 

[MMJ100]

Finman,
Thank you. I did feed sugar to both hives. But it was solid sugar (Fondant)
I did put the swarm into a hive box that had about 4 frames built out and the rest not built out.
I learned something you said that they use sugar to make wax. I did not know that.

Thank you
Michael

 

[Finman]

about 4 frames built out and the rest not built out.

You may pour 1:2 syrup into those drawn combs too.
But it depends what are you weathers somewhere there.

.

 

[beeno]

Hi Michael,
I am a newbie, but in my experience bees swarm when they need to and it is very difficult to determine if they have swarmed by looking at the old hive. I think you have to work on the premise that the swarm came from your hive. Thus I am afraid to tell you that you will have to inspect the original hive for Queen cells otherwise you may end up with a depleted hive from lots of cast swarms. Save one or two, depending on how brave you want to be, otherwise your hive will be queenless. Mating might be a problem this early in your part of the world as well as here. First cast due 7 days from when the prime swarm left. Presumable, you have your old queen in the hived prime swarm, so you could always reunite (with newspaper method) if new queen does not get mated. This time of the year I would defenately feed swarm. Whether you feed original hive you can determine when you inspect. If they are really crowded when you inspect (difficult to determine without pulling frames) put a super on. Enjoy.

 

[MMJ100]

Finman,

I really did not want to open up for too long as it was cloudy and going to rain (as it did later) The next few days should be sunny and much warmer so I will go in again to answer your question.

Thank you so much for your help.

But do you think the swarm came form my hive? I read that a swarm will only travel a short distance. But why do both hives look so full?

Michael

 

[MMJ100]

Beano,
Thank you so much, I will inspect in the next few days as it will be well above 15 deg and sunny. I will then have answers to your questions.

Thank you, now I know what to look for,

Michael

 

[itma]

Hi Michael,
I am a newbie, but in my experience bees swarm when they need to and it is very difficult to determine if they have swarmed by looking at the old hive. I think you have to work on the premise that the swarm came from your hive. Thus I am afraid to tell you that you will have to inspect the original hive for Queen cells otherwise you may end up with a depleted hive from lots of cast swarms. Save one or two, depending on how brave you want to be, otherwise your hive will be queenless. Mating might be a problem this early in your part of the world as well as here. First cast due 7 days from when the prime swarm left. Presumable, you have your old queen in the hived prime swarm, so you could always reunite (with newspaper method) if new queen does not get mated. This time of the year I would defenately feed swarm. Whether you feed original hive you can determine when you inspect. If they are really crowded when you inspect (difficult to determine without pulling frames) put a super on. Enjoy.

The swarm. Don't feed it for the first couple of days - so they use up all the stores they are carrying internally. If they came from elsewhere, you don't want that honey being stored. But yes, after that feed.
And if you intend giving them drawn comb, I'd withhold that until they've used up the stores they are carrying - I'd avoid giving them somewhere to store it!
Feed because they need to eat a lot of honey/sugar to make wax. I'd say syrup rather than fondant - so they can eat/process it quicker than they could fondant.

The (likely parent) hive. Check for queen cells, yes. But don't shake the frames! Be gentle with them in case they have QCs. After you've seen QCs, keep (at most) the two best sealed cells. Mark the frames they are on.
Bees won't swarm unless there are plenty stores to leave behind. So don't feed them!
One way of reducing casts (secondary, after-swarms) is actually to weaken the hive, by (temporarily) removing stores and giving them empty drawn comb. From the sound of it they are overdue for a super. And you don't want to be adding a super and feeding at the same time.
Depending on your stock of spare hives, you might even be tempted to split the still-crowded parent hive, giving each half a couple of QCs at most.

If you see QCs, you are going to have to close up for about 3 weeks to let the new queen get mated and settled in peace.
So you need to be pro-active at this point, getting a super on if it might be needed, and sorting out anything else that is 'pending'.



Lessons to be learned. Don't postpone inspections so late - opening up on a chilly day will not kill your colony! But not looking can stop you acting to save them - or prevent the loss of a swarm.
Question whether they have been over-fed, so that they had too little brood space available.
And do invest in a see-through crown board, so you can have an idea of what's happening (like overcrowding) without the fuss of a full opening.
Brilliant things!

 

[adrian wilford]

A WHAT!!!!!!! why have they swarmed so early? 2 queens or more, brood box full of brood or stores, its not normal surely as they wouldn't survive in the nature as theres not enough out there for food and pollen and are there enough new bees to build the wax required for a new home?

 

[adrian wilford]

sorry for my last response, just noticed your location, lucky you

 

[Hivemaker.]

First cast due 7 days from when the prime swarm left.

And it could be much sooner than that, beeno.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

sorry for my last response, just noticed your location, lucky you

don't worry - enjoyed the rant, unfortunately you'd realised before anyone had a chance to comment!!

 

[MMJ100]

Adrian,
You were quick to see the location, otherwise you could have had a ton of beeks on to you. Seriously, it is amazing to see the difference in a relatively short distance. I went to school near you and am more than happy not to be there.

I am still amazed at the number of bees in both hives and still have a feeling that the swarm came from somewhere else. Even though I think that is unlikely.

Thank you every one. I will look in, in a couple of days to see what is going on and look for queen cells etc as suggested.

Michael

 

[MMJ100]

Itma,
I have waited until today, as there was a big wind yesterday, and felt it was not good to open the hives.

So today is day 8.
sunny and 18/19 + deg

I opened the old hive first and as you suggested looked for queen cells. There were a few on top ? The hive was full so I tried to move a frame or two they were well and truly stuck together but the bees became somwhat agitated.The hive was full to over flowing ( 8 days after it lost a sizable swarm - aparently). I went and got a super and put it on. There were so many bees in the feeder that I had intended to remove that I put that back on too and shut it all up.

I am toatlly amazed that the hive is so totally full of bees - 10 frames on 10. For the past week there has been steady activily with pollen going in all the time.

Now to the new swarmed hive. This was all calm (it is 1 meter away). Here I found about 4 frames full of bees. A lot of stores in a more liquid form uncovered. For the past few days there has been regular acitivity with today about 3/4 pollen arrivals in 10 seconds. Not sure what to say about this except that regular patches of comb was glistening in the sun. I looked at all the frames and saw no brood at all.

I am sorry if this is not clear but again it suprised me and I left bewildered.

Michael

 

[Finman]

.
MM, now you have a problem.

YOu have an invalid 4 frame colony, which is not much able to make brood when weather becomes better.

Then you have full hive, which has no laying queen, only queen cells.

Now you may change the hive places that 4 frame hive get more bees.
Then you feed it that it draws foundatiosn and looses its swarming fever.

Then brood hive looses so much bees that it forget the second swarming (lets hope)
When a new queen emerges, ypou must handle it so that you do not get second swarm.

Then, join the hives when everything is over.

.

 

[beeno]

Hi Michael,
I assume that your statement that you were preparing them for a split meant that you have been feeding to build them up in numbers, but they beat you to it. Ten frame colony and four frame swarm sounds about right i.e. half the hive swarms. The old queen will have been starved by the bees in readiness for her flight and will not have laid in the last three weeks, so the hive is full of emerging brood. Therefore it is difficult to notice any great difference in numbers.
New swarms don't always start laying on day two even with the old queen. If you are like me, you may have failed to see eggs (three days there) and very small larvae, so you may very well see capped broad on your next inspection! They seem to have a purpose to their foraging, so I would not worry on their account yet.
I would follow Finman's advice as an interim measure, but you must inspect the old hive properly. For all you know you may have 50 queen cells in there. Judging by the amount of cast swarms in the UK last year they don't always tear them down, so that is not an option in my book because the bees often don't read it. Get suited and booted. Large hives are awesome to inspect!

 

[MMJ100]

Beano,
Thanks I feel less down in the dumps now!

yes I was planning on splitting this hive. but they beat me to it.
yes the old hive has had a great deal of bees doing orientation flights recently.
there is a definite purpose in all activity and yes I could have missed the eggs.

Does Finman literally mean swap the actual positions of each hive to the position of the other?

Thank you so much
Michael

 

[itma]

I have waited until today, as there was a big wind yesterday, and felt it was not good to open the hives.

So today is day 8.
sunny and 18/19 + deg

I opened the old hive first and as you suggested looked for queen cells. There were a few on top ?

That sounds wrong.
Queen Cells shouldn't be "on top".
In a double brood box hive, the bottom of the frames in the top box is the first place to look. But "on top"? Can't say impossible where bees are concerned, but unlikely, bl**dy unlikely.
Leaving them 8 days after swarming would be too long - risking losing casts as well. Patience is a virtue at most times in beekeeping, but not when dealing with queen cells! Where QCs are involved one simply does not wait for the weather! (The queens don't - mostly.)
Immediately after swarming, the original colony would have had *sealed* queen cells. After 8 more days, they might have started to be opened. But even an opened queen cell is readily distinguishable from a 'play cup'.
Did you see proper queen cells?
Download and study the Welsh leaflet www.wbka.com/pdf/a012queencells.pdf

The hive was full so I tried to move a frame or two they were well and truly stuck together but the bees became somwhat agitated.The hive was full to over flowing ( 8 days after it lost a sizable swarm - aparently). I went and got a super and put it on. There were so many bees in the feeder that I had intended to remove that I put that back on too and shut it all up.

I am toatlly amazed that the hive is so totally full of bees - 10 frames on 10. For the past week there has been steady activily with pollen going in all the time.

You are in the South of France.
Your season is ahead of ours.
It sounds to me as though the big colony is preparing to swarm, rather than 'has already swarmed'.
If it has swarmed already, then it will swarm again (one or more casts) any day now.
I think you should inspect it for QCs pronto. Hopefully you will find not-yet-capped cells and do an artificial swarm or split to avoid losing bees.

I suspect that you may have lost a swarm last year, which has survived the winter, and that gone-feral colony was the one that sent out the swarm that you caught a week ago.

And I think there is a risk of losing another one from the overcrowded hive.
It does need checking for QCs - and very soon.

Now to the new swarmed hive. This was all calm (it is 1 meter away). Here I found about 4 frames full of bees. A lot of stores in a more liquid form uncovered. For the past few days there has been regular acitivity with today about 3/4 pollen arrivals in 10 seconds. Not sure what to say about this except that regular patches of comb was glistening in the sun. I looked at all the frames and saw no brood at all. l

Would you have seen eggs?
Its a bit early to be expecting to see much.
If you don't see eggs and larvae after another week (two weeks after swarming), you might consider giving them a frame from the other hive which has eggs on it, and then observing whether they try to construct a QC or two on the donated frame.
Some might advocate giving them some emerging brood from the other hive. That would weaken the overcrowded one (reducing swarm pressure) and strengthen the caught swarm.
But I don't think it sounds as though they are doing too badly.
The smaller size (much less than half the bees that there are in the crowded hive) suggests that they came from elsewhere.
No harm at all to feed the swarm.
Don't feed the overcrowded hive!


More patience with the caught swarm, less patience (more urgency) with the crowded one. Check carefully for real QCs, unsealed & 'wet', sealed or opened. Go look!

 

[Finman]

That sounds wrong.
Queen Cells shouldn't be "on top". !

If it is only place where was brood.