Strange happenings after a swarm

[itma]

If it is only place where was brood.

As I said: "Can't say impossible where bees are concerned, but unlikely, bl**dy unlikely. "

 

[beeno]

Beano,
Thanks I feel less down in the dumps now!

yes I was planning on splitting this hive. but they beat me to it.
yes the old hive has had a great deal of bees doing orientation flights recently.
there is a definite purpose in all activity and yes I could have missed the eggs.

Does Finman literally mean swap the actual positions of each hive to the position of the other?

Thank you so much
Michael

Hi Michael,
Yes, Finman does. So that more forage bees enter the new hive to strengthen it and to weaken the old overflowing hive. Do it tonight, then the old hive will be easier to inspect for you tomorrow.

 

[MMJ100]

Thank you Itma for spending so much time in replying. I am most grateful.

I will study and do what you say

Michael

 

[MMJ100]

Beano,

wow! Tank you. will do - now I understand.

many thanks
Michael

 

[itma]

Hi Michael,
Yes, Finman does. So that more forage bees enter the new hive to strengthen it and to weaken the old overflowing hive. Do it tonight, then the old hive will be easier to inspect for you tomorrow.

I don't think there is this much urgency for the swarm. They are establishing well, and bringing in pollen.
But I'd make sure they had a reduced entrance to help prevent robbing by their neighbours ...
Shifting a frame of brood should be easier to achieve and less problematic than having them swamped by strangers.

But properly checking the crowded hive (which will probably not be easy to move) for real queen cells (in whatever state) is the real priority.


I don't think it is being appreciated that the season in the French Riviera is well ahead of the UK -- hey, at least one colony has swarmed already (unless its another April Fool).

 

[MMJ100]

It is certainly not an April fool hi hi

But I can assure you that we are always ahead by about 3/4 weeks of southern uk and have a much shorter winter. I know well as I went to school in Yorkshire.

Itma, are you suggesting not to swap positions but instead do a real inspection to morrow for QCs

Michael

 

[itma]

Itma, are you suggesting not to swap positions but instead do a real inspection to morrow for QCs

Finman's advice was based on his diagnosis

YOu have an invalid 4 frame colony, which is not much able to make brood when weather becomes better.

Then you have full hive, which has no laying queen, only queen cells.

I think your weather is plenty good enough for brood, however I think that a week after swarming is too early to expect to be spotting obvious brood, so I wouldn't declare them "invalid" just yet.
Similarly, I can't be sure whether the big hive has swarmed and whether or not it has real queen cells, in whatever state.

// I'd be surprised if only 4 frames of bees had swarmed and left 10 crowded frames behind. So I doubt they came from the big hive - well not this year anyway!

It might well swarm, very soon -- or if it has swarmed, then it is at risk of losing a cast.
Which is what needs to be checked with a QC inspection.
Moving bees (by one means or another) from the strong hive to the weak one would indeed reduce the swarm pressure.
We don't know how critical that is.

But you might need to be doing an artificial swarm on the big hive after you've inspected it, so moving things around beforehand would really confuse the situation.

Sorting out whether the big hive has swarmed, is about to swarm, or is ready to cast strikes me as being the priority.
But 'bleeding' some bees across to the weaker one would help to reduce the pressure in the big hive. It may not be the easiest way of doing that. And it won't make any difference until they start flying tomorrow (assuming that today's action is ending about now, if not before).



Can you tell us more about those "queen cells" you saw "at the top"?
How many, on how many frames? Sealed, opened, or in process of building?

 

[MMJ100]

Itma, Sunday update.

At about 11.30 I was just about to suit up and start the smoker. When the bees acted. A small swarm came out and eventually settled on a fruit tree 6 meters from the hive. It came from the old hive. Weather sunny and 20 + deg.

I decided that they need to settle so had lunch. After lunch I went to deal with the old hive -my priority, I thought.
I took the super off noticing that there were quite a few bees there. The brood box looked so full on 10 frames.

I started taking frames out. Let me correct my previous error by saying that what I previously reported as being QCs were in fact drone cells (sorry for misleading you). I immediatly found about 12 real QCs spread around the frames . I took them all off. There were drone cells around on several frames and there was capped brood as well on several frames.

I took out all the frames one after the other (leaving two on the outside). There were bees everywhere and it was as frantic as I have ever seen. All went well and all QC were removed I removed all because of the swarm this morning. I could not get the last frame (2nd from the end) back in so I did something I am not sure was right but I had to do something. I took an empty frame from the super and it went in and I put the second from last one in the super. I closed up. There were very many bees on the front outside and in the air. But within 20 mins all were inside again.

At this point I went to the small swarm. This BTW was very small and very much smaller than the swarm 9 days ago. I got it into a box and from there into a nuc. Where is stayed (so far)

I had to retreat as I had quite a few pestering bees and I think they (and I) all need to calm down.

I did not touch the other new hive and they have been flying normally.

I hope I have done more or les what you where suggesting. I also hope that matters are a little more clear. I still cannot understand how the first swarm came from this hive but I bow to the experience of you and others here.

I really appreciate your fullsome messages and have tried to follow recomendations as well as possible

Thank you and all the others.

Michael

 

[Hivemaker.]

I immediatly found about 12 real QCs spread around the frames . I took them all off.

And what is going to be your next move with this hive?

 

[MMJ100]

Hivemaker,
I am not sure of the direction of your question.

I am hoping the colony builds up in the super and returns to foraging, while I have a stiff drink (at 6.00 o'clock) and probably inspect again in one or two weeks.

Michael

 

[Hivemaker.]

Does the colony that you broke all the queen cells down in still have a queen, or were there still eggs and tiny larvae present.

 

[beeno]

Itma, Sunday update.

At about 11.30 I was just about to suit up and start the smoker. When the bees acted. A small swarm came out and eventually settled on a fruit tree 6 meters from the hive. It came from the old hive. Weather sunny and 20 + deg.

I decided that they need to settle so had lunch. After lunch I went to deal with the old hive -my priority, I thought.
I took the super off noticing that there were quite a few bees there. The brood box looked so full on 10 frames.

I started taking frames out. Let me correct my previous error by saying that what I previously reported as being QCs were in fact drone cells (sorry for misleading you). I immediatly found about 12 real QCs spread around the frames . I took them all off. There were drone cells around on several frames and there was capped brood as well on several frames.

I took out all the frames one after the other (leaving two on the outside). There were bees everywhere and it was as frantic as I have ever seen. All went well and all QC were removed I removed all because of the swarm this morning. I could not get the last frame (2nd from the end) back in so I did something I am not sure was right but I had to do something. I took an empty frame from the super and it went in and I put the second from last one in the super. I closed up. There were very many bees on the front outside and in the air. But within 20 mins all were inside again.

At this point I went to the small swarm. This BTW was very small and very much smaller than the swarm 9 days ago. I got it into a box and from there into a nuc. Where is stayed (so far)

I had to retreat as I had quite a few pestering bees and I think they (and I) all need to calm down.

I did not touch the other new hive and they have been flying normally.

I hope I have done more or les what you where suggesting. I also hope that matters are a little more clear. I still cannot understand how the first swarm came from this hive but I bow to the experience of you and others here.

I really appreciate your fullsome messages and have tried to follow recomendations as well as possible

Thank you and all the others.

Michael

Hi Michael,
Well, done Michael for tackling the 'old hive' although they beat you to it again! Text book, very interesting, apart from the fact that the girls were a day or two late to make the cast swarm.
However, in getting rid of all the queen cells you have now a queenless hive which is your next problem to sort out! Are you 100% sure you have not missed an odd QC. There are no eggs in this hive to make another one. All is not lost, however, because hopefully you have the old laying queen in your prime swarm and one virgin in your very small cast swarm.
I can feel a unite coming on, but it takes a more experienced beek to guide you through that. I think Finman does this all the time, but he may suggest buy yourself a laying queen.
I was called away so I don't know the state of play on the forum, but here it goes.

 

[itma]

... very interesting, apart from the fact that the girls were a day or two late to make the cast swarm.
However, in getting rid of all the queen cells you have now a queenless hive which is your next problem to sort out! Are you 100% sure you have not missed an odd QC. There are no eggs in this hive to make another one. All is not lost, however, because hopefully you have the old laying queen in your prime swarm and one virgin in your very small cast swarm.
I can feel a unite coming on, but it takes a more experienced beek to guide you through that. ...

Yes.

It looks as though the swarm DID come from your original hive. The old queen would have left with that. // Before the swarm, they must have been REALLY crowded ...
About 8 days after the prime swarm, new unmated (virgin) queens would begin to emerge from their cells. In a 'still-full' hive, the first would leave with a small 'cast' swarm.
Knocking down ALL the remaining queen cells means it is likely that there is no queen at all in the hive.
And because it is more than a week since the old mated queen left, there will be no larvae young enough to be upgraded to emergency queen cells. Left to themselves, they would probably now be doomed.
/ there is a slim chance that a second virgin emerged before you knocked down the QCs - and that needs to be determined before trying to reunite or introduce a queen.

Michael, its a pity that
- you didn't inspect earlier (before the first swarm)
- you didn't inspect until 8 days after the swarm
- you didn't study the welsh leaflet that I linked for you
- because if you had, you wouldn't have removed ALL the queen cells ...

As beeno says, hopefully, you have a couple of queens in the hived swarms - albeit that one isn't mated. She needs to be left well alone for about a month to get mated and start laying. (OK, feed, but don't open up at all.) Hopefully, the drone cells you saw indicate that there are some drones around and mating is a genuine prospect.
A reunite with the original queen is probably the best route, but probably not just yet, if she hasn't restarted laying yet.
// when she does, you'd probably start by moving a test frame with eggs into the ?queenless? hive, to see if they make QCs on it, indicating that they are Q-
Oh, and in the meantime, your queenless and numerous colony would be expected to get very bad-tempered for a while.

 

[MMJ100]

Itma,
I am afraid that I assumed that there was certainly a queen in the colony. I am shocked and sad to think that I may have made a mistake. I thank you for your time and effort which I appreciate greatly. I am going to study hard and continue to do my best for my bees.
Michael

 

[Hivemaker.]

Don't leave it too long, as there is the risk of them turning laying worker if there is no queen.

 

[itma]

Michael, we *all* make mistakes. The important thing is to learn the most from the minimum number of mistakes! (Read that welsh QC booklet!)

Hopefully, the cast will manage to make a viable new queen - but she won't be ready for perhaps a month.
I'd be putting the cast into a small nuc hive. And giving them a frame of sealed (ideally near emerging) brood. And some food. Then leave them firmly alone ...
Meanwhile, the old queen will hopefully be producing brood very soon.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes.

- you didn't study the welsh leaflet that I linked for you
- because if you had, you wouldn't have removed ALL the queen cells ...

If you turn the leaflet aroud it has English in the other side (that may help a little)

 

[itma]

Don't leave it too long, as there is the risk of them turning laying worker if there is no queen.

No brood, surely?

The difference being that they can be kept 'normal' by giving them some brood, ahead of attempting queen introduction?

And they won't be entirely broodless for a while yet ...

 

[Hivemaker.]

No brood, surely?

No queen or brood, if they have a virgin queen then they will be okay normally, but even then some will turn laying worker, but this will problem will stop once she mates, even giving them frames of open brood and constantly breaking down cells until giving them a mated queen they will likely turn laying worker, also depends on the strain of bee, some strains will turn laying worker in as little as a week of being Q- while they still have sealed brood.

 

[itma]

... some strains will turn laying worker in as little as a week of being Q- while they still have sealed brood.

I'm fortunate enough not to have encountered any of those. (Yet)