Shook swarm on brood and a half

[region2]

After a bit of EFB in a weak colony in my apiary last year I intend (as recommended by the Inspector) to shook swarm the remaining four colonies in the next few weeks. Some questions:

1. Two of the colonies are on a brood and a half with lots of brood and stores - should I shook swarm them into just a brood box? That is my intention with a QE under the hive to prevent her absconding but what can I do to prevent congestion?
2. How soon should I do the deed? All my bees are bringing in pollen and the Q's are laying well - one suggestion is end of March, another mid-April...

Thanks

R2

 

[Tom Bick]

I am after my first inspection thinking about shook swarming a double brood hive into a single bb.

This hive needs moving onto new comb and for me regarding shook swarm more bees the better as it can knock the bees a bit and the extra bees can make all the difference.

I don’t think it will overcrowd the bb unless the two existing bb are boiling over with bees and I doubt that.

 

[RoofTops]

I would suggest one brood box - the colony will shrink in numbers for a few weeks to begin with before it builds.

However, if you find you need brood and a half why not take this as a good opportunity to change to 14 * 12? You don't need to rush out and buy the new brood box immedeately - stick with brood and a half but with the deeper frames. It will do for a few months.

I have done shook swarms at the end of March in a warm year. What you want to look for are plenty of young bees - these will be the little hairy blighters but look to see if frames of sealed brood have produced at least one generation of bees and the queen has begun to re-lay the centre of the frames. I am not sure of how many frames of brood you would need - if it was only five or six it would probably be worth shaking them into a nuc but around 8 would be better.

If you are doing this as a belt and braces EFB measure make sure you destroy all the frames - don't try the trick of putting a varroa trap frame in. What you could do to knock the varroa is give them a dose of OA after they have been there say 5 days and the QX is still in place. You could do them straight away but the shook swarm will be stress enough.

Conventional wisdom would say feed them 50/50 syrup straight away but if you want to give them a really fresh start then delay feeding for say 2 or 3 days so they can empty their crops. This is a technique used with shook swarms for AFB in some countries - not that I am saying your bees have AFB but I can't see any real downside to doing it in these circumstances.

 

[Meg]

Depending on the weather, then I would say mid April when you should have enough new bees to cope with no brood for a while. (In other words when the winter ones have all died off anyway.) Then just shake into one brood box. Much better to keep the volume not too great to start with even if you end up double brooding later. Too cold otherwise to draw wax sensibly.

Just an additional thought - is your Inspector coming back to check your bees this year? If so, get them to come early if you can and then you know that you are all clear before you shake - may save time and money.

Best of luck - and keep the Queen excluder in until you can see larvae. Less risk of disappearing into the great blue yonder.

Meg

 

[oliver90owner]

A couple of points.

RT is right about the contracting numbers. About half the bees would, in full season, be foragers; most of these will be dead before the next brood emerges.

However, there are other ways to kill varroa than using oxalic acid, should you need to treat. Also, then forking out the first small patch of capped brood would mop up most remaining varroa.

An eke to convert your fresh brood box to 14 x 12 is a simple and cheap option now, should you choose to go that way. Frames and foundation are then the extra cost as I expect you have deep foundation, not extra-deep.

And beware of three days without stores coming in! Remember, most swarms take supplies from the parent hive - not so, with a shook swarm!

EFB would not survive a boil up in caustic soda, but likely as well, for most, to destroy them.

RAB

 

[Meg]

Clearly RT and I posted at the same time.

I agree with RAB re the feeding. They will not have brought anything much with them and you are expecting them to do a lot of work, so feeding is a must. They will still be emptying their crops well before there are any larvae to feed. If you are providing the energy, then they need only forage for pollen and water for a few days. Less stress - healthier bees.

Meg

 

[RoofTops]

The trick of not feeding them for a few days after a shook swarm is a recognised technique for the treatment of AFB - but not in this country so that would explain why there is not much knowledge about it or experience - just conjecture. I have not read anywhere the method kills the colony. The idea is to get them hungry - if you feed them straight away so their crops are not emptied any bugs in their gut also get fed.

However, when carried out in the early part of the year when stores and forage are not common it could be risky, so perhaps not for the faint hearted.

I also stand by my suggstion about OA treatment. I have seen a colony suffer varroa damage after a shook swarm - against all expectations. As for "forking out" the first brood, this would be the last thing to do on a shook swarm in my view. The colony needs to get back on it feet quickly and delaying the first brood emergence is not a good idea I think.

But each to his own.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The trick of not feeding them for a few days is a recognised technique for the treatment of AFB. I have not read anywhere it kills them.

I agree, it is ..and then shake them into another clean box with frames and feed. Was used in this country, and the method described by Manley for one.

 

[region2]

I'm a bit confused - do I feed or not? Do I put them in one box for a few days then into another box - surely not?

R2

 

[mbc]

I'm a bit confused - do I feed or not? Do I put them in one box for a few days then into another box - surely not?

R2

Its up to you really R2, they are all correct, but the not feeding and subsequent shaking onto yet another clean box of frames are the most thorough form of shook swarming recommended if you're treating definite disease, if you are merely changing combs on undiagnosed contact colonies these measures could be considered extreme.

 

[drstitson]

i agree - shake into one box. They're having to start from scratch and as rab says the existing foragers will be dead before new brood emerges.

of course the other option if consistently needing B+1/2 is to take the opportunity to change to 14x12!!!

 

[Meg]

I can see where Rooftops is coming from with his double shake method, but that - as he says - is for treating a diseased colony in another country, not this one. (By the way, Where? RT)

If you don't feed straight away, then you risk losing some of your bees through starvation and you really need them all for this to work well. If there is a fantastic flow on and the weather is great, then you might get away with not feeding, but personally I would always want to give them something at the very least.

Meg