Serious advice appreciated

[yeogi75]

mintmoth are you any where near blaby could give you a hand with kit if you decide to split hive into two or three hives with a couple of cells in each it seems like they have enough feed

 

[mintmoth]

So what laid the eggs in the queen cups to produce the larvae you have seen... workers?

That's what stymied me, 'cos there are no other eggs or larvae that I can see, though there are a few small patches of sealed worker cells. That's why I asked if the bees would move eggs down from the frame I gave them to the bottom box.

 

[mintmoth]

Yes I'm near you yeogi.

 

[pargyle]

That's what stymied me, 'cos there are no other eggs or larvae that I can see, though there are a few small patches of sealed worker cells. That's why I asked if the bees would move eggs down from the frame I gave them to the bottom box.

Ahhh ...now there's a question that will provoke a bit of debate - there are those who believe they do and there are those who think they don't. Most of the controversy lies around queen cells being built above a queen excluder - so the possibility is that the queen could get through the QE.

If they don't then it has to be laying workers if there are sealed cells - but - laying workers are not going to be laying fertilised eggs so they are going to be drone cells, not worker cells.

So .. as far as I know, nobody has even SEEN a bee moving an egg to another cell - Some people remain absolutely convinced that the bees move eggs around but finding proof - ie: some video or photographic evidence of bees carrying eggs, rather than the assumption as a result of circumstantial evidence of eggs/larvae/brood being in an unexpected location - is very difficult.

But ... I don't know and as far as I'm concerned the jury is out on the issue - but I suspect there will be a few on here who are very firmly on one side of the fence or the other.

You've probably just lit a fuse !

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think eggs might be moved in desperation.
The test frame I put in the brood half of a split had one QC where I might expect it and two on an adjacent frame. All had queen larvae in them

 

[mintmoth]

Latest - I left 2 Q cells, near each other on the same frame, and removed the rest. Had a quick peek yesterday as emergence day should have been Tues - Thurs if the cells were made using eggs from the frame I gave the colony. One cell was lidless, the other had been torn open on the side and was empty, so I'm taking that as a sign they did contain queens, and not eggs/drones from DLW's.

The bees were still agitated, but not cross as they were before. I'm going to leave it alone now for a couple of weeks and hope a new Q will calm them once she starts laying. There have been a lot of drones in my own hive, so no worries really about her being mated. And I hope as a daughter of my lovely calm queen who makes wonderful calm workers, she will produce calm workers herself.

 

[pargyle]

There have been a lot of drones in my own hive, so no worries really about her being mated. And I hope as a daughter of my lovely calm queen who makes wonderful calm workers, she will produce calm workers herself.

Live in hope !! The problem is virgin queens fly to Drone Congregation Areas to mate - and drones from every colony within about a five mile radius will be there - the queen mates with those drones that fly high enough and fast enough to catch her - so, the genes you are going to get rather depend on who of the drones has the ability - the rest of it is just a matter of luck I'm afraid. She ain't gonna come out of the hive and mate with the boy next door !

 

[mintmoth]

Yes, for me that's the only downside of keeping bees that I've found (so far!), that breeding depends on pot luck and chance. (For us hobby beeks anyway - ooh, first time I've called myself a beek!)

The closest colony is a wild one living in a chimney nearby, so I've no idea what sort of temperament they have. And of course, there's the swarm that bu&&ered off in the first place, no idea where that went.
Whatever, I'll be happy if the colony survives and worry about temper next year

 

[beeno]

Latest - I left 2 Q cells, near each other on the same frame, and removed the rest. Had a quick peek yesterday as emergence day should have been Tues - Thurs if the cells were made using eggs from the frame I gave the colony. One cell was lidless, the other had been torn open on the side and was empty, so I'm taking that as a sign they did contain queens, and not eggs/drones from DLW's.

The bees were still agitated, but not cross as they were before. I'm going to leave it alone now for a couple of weeks and hope a new Q will calm them once she starts laying. There have been a lot of drones in my own hive, so no worries really about her being mated. And I hope as a daughter of my lovely calm queen who makes wonderful calm workers, she will produce calm workers herself.

Congratulations, you are back in control as much as one can be as a beek. Fingers cross for the mating. A bait hive is in order with the chimney bees. Season not over yet.

 

[Truble]

Koenigers? Mating biology of the honey bee describes experiments showing how queens travel to a more distance congregation area than the drones from the nearby apiaries. A strategy designed to minimise inbreeding.

 

[mintmoth]

Koenigers? Mating biology of the honey bee describes experiments showing how queens travel to a more distance congregation area than the drones from the nearby apiaries. A strategy designed to minimise inbreeding.

As long as she makes it home again I'll be happy

 

[mintmoth]

Congratulations, you are back in control as much as one can be as a beek. Fingers cross for the mating. A bait hive is in order with the chimney bees. Season not over yet.

I've put a H/M wooden nuc nearby. I took it up there with the thought that if the hive was full of DLW's I'd have a go at switching places with the nuc, giving the nuc a frame of eggs so that hopefully the foragers would go home to it and start a new Q and the DLW's would die out in the original hive moved elsewhere out of the way.

So if there's any swarms about, it's there and ready, though a bit small (only 6 frames). Can you really get swarms in August? I thought swarming petered out by the middle of July.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've put a H/M wooden nuc nearby. I took it up there with the thought that if the hive was full of DLW's I'd have a go at switching places with the nuc, giving the nuc a frame of eggs so that hopefully the foragers would go home to it and start a new Q and the DLW's would die out in the original hive moved elsewhere out of the way.

So if there's any swarms about, it's there and ready, though a bit small (only 6 frames). Can you really get swarms in August? I thought swarming petered out by the middle of July.

A waste of time - it's a much perpetuated myth that laying workers (they cannot lay anything apart from drones) can't or will not fly - nonsense. The foragers will be laying as much as any other bee (in fact, they will all be foragers as there would be precious little brood to care for Putting a frame of brood in the hive may have had a positive result but would probably take a series of frames and even then, introducing a mated queen would be better as the old workers would struggle to raise a decent queen.

 

[mintmoth]

I was told that it was the younger bees that become DLW's, so less chance of them having done orientation flights and being able to find home again.

But I'm always ready and willing to follow experienced advice, thanks, JBM.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

They'll find their way home - orientation flight take place sooner than you think, and remember, by the time the hive has been Q- long enough to develop Laying Workers those younger bees will be old enough to be fully fledged foragers (so whoever told you that must be reading some weird books)
The process of 'shaking out' a hive is not so the Laying Workers get lost, or can't fly back to the hive, it's so, as their hive has disappeared, they will beg their way into other hives - the strong queen pheremones in the host hive will supress the laying instinct and the egg police will deal with the rest.

 

[Truble]

Yes, for me that's the only downside of keeping bees that I've found (so far!), that breeding depends on pot luck and chance. (For us hobby beeks anyway - ooh, first time I've called myself a beek!)

The closest colony is a wild one living in a chimney nearby, so I've no idea what sort of temperament they have. And of course, there's the swarm that bu&&ered off in the first place, no idea where that went.
Whatever, I'll be happy if the colony survives and worry about temper next year

seems to be a duplicate post...

 

[Erichalfbee]

They'll find their way home - orientation flight take place sooner than you think, and remember, by the time the hive has been Q- long enough to develop Laying Workers those younger bees will be old enough to be fully fledged foragers (so whoever told you that must be reading some weird books)
The process of 'shaking out' a hive is not so the Laying Workers get lost, or can't fly back to the hive, it's so, as their hive has disappeared, they will beg their way into other hives - the strong queen pheremones in the host hive will supress the laying instinct and the egg police will deal with the rest.

I have lost count of the number of times I have given this same advice.
The myth persists though

 

[mintmoth]

Had a quick peek today and there are at least one and a half frames beautifully filled with sealed brood. Half lifted out just one frame as I really didn't want to disturb them and they still get cross, and it looked textbook perfect, honey/pollen arc around the top/sides, and every cell in the rest of the frame capped worker brood, she's not missed one cell in her laying. Brill.

Just hoping the new bees will be sweeter, although I suspect it's partly my fault as they glue the poly hive down so tight and I find it hard to break it apart without jerking or banging it. Is there a tried and tested technique? I have no problem with my cedar hive, those bees don't use so much propolis. I've vaselined the edges I exposed today to see if that will ease it a bit.