Room to expand ?

[Sootydog]

Bought a five frame nuc about a month ago. They are doing well and steadily drawing out the 6 frames of foundation. They are not all drawn on both sides yet but I have noticed in the evening that the hive looks jam packed with bees over all frames (looking in the entrance with a torch). I thought it would be a good idea to add an excluder and a super but they are not interested at all. Should I leave it on or remove it? Am I asking too much of them to start drawing out a super as well?

 

[YorkshireBees]

Personally unless they are storing lots of honey in your brood box I would remove the super as you are just creating more space for them to keep warm whilst they are trying to draw out the frames in the brood box and keep the brood warm!

In general I would say only add a super when 8 frames are drawn out and at least laid on!

 

[BILL.HEARD]

I would have left it until they had nearly completed the brood frames before supering, with these cold nights they would have been better left in the one brood box.

 

[666bees]

It's quite amazing caught a prime swarm 1 month ago exactly , checked today.Brood full of bees,brood on 10 frames and now drawing out the super. Why do swarms draw foundation out more quickly?

 

[huntsman666]

Your girls are doing fine, so put a super on now.

Don't be concerned about hive temperatures if you have a strong colony, they'll use the super when they and they alone decide.

 

[oliver90owner]

666s,

1 month ago exactly

Last year a 14 x 12 box was filled completely in a three week period by a 'not huge' swarm.

Why do swarms draw foundation out more quickly?

Because there are a high proportion of young bees waiting in the swarm, specifically to get on with that job from the outset and they are organised to draw the comb quickly for the queen to get back into laying for the next brood cycle.

so put a super on now.

Why the rush to super if it is not going to be used? This is contrary to the way the bees would work naturally. They would start at the top and work downwards. We start them at the top then when they are ready we add a new space at the top. Not good if they are not ready and the weather is not conducive.

Lets be hearing how much brood there is (full frames equivalent), not a subjective assessment of how many bees there might be. The bees may be appear to be filling the hive but are possibly simply 'chaining' and drawing comb at the bottom of the outer frames.

RAB

 

[Skyhook]

As usual it's a balancing act. Too much space and it's hard for them too heat; but when the colony's strong they can require a super just to fit the bees in at night. 1/3 of the bees may forage- does the brood box look 2/3 full of bees when you inspect on a sunny afternoon?

 

[drstitson]

sootydog - i take it you just hived the nuc and added 6 frames of foundation at once?

that's not how most do it - as per other threads it is normal to add 2 frames either side of the 5 from the nuc plus a dummy board and then add the other 4 as needed.

This means the bees are only concentrating on the space they need at the time not a big empty hive.

the first super is usually added once there are 8 frames of brood and the rest are fully drawn.

 

[Sootydog]

Room to expand

I didn't have a dummy board available so I put in 6 frames of foundation (3 each side of the five frames), then as they started to draw the outer frame, I gradually moved it inwards towards the center being carefull not to "isolate" brood. After a few weeks I now have new/old/new/old etc with 7-8 sides of newly drawn comb available for laying. If the weather stays cold/wet I'll probably take the new super & excluder off and wait for a while. I will contact the seller to see if he runs his hives on brood and a half or double brood he may be breeding prolific queens. Although I haven't ever got on with brood and a half I find it quite duanting to keep under control especially during swarm season, I always miss Queen cells.

 

[oliver90owner]

I didn't have a dummy board available

You have 6 brood frames a whole super of frames, but no dummy board?

Surely you could have cut a piece of hardboard/6mm ply/similar to size and pinned/screwed/nailed/glued/whatevered it to the side of one of the super/brood frames/top bars and dropped it in as a dummy/divider. We are really talking simple practical beekeeping here, not rocket development!

There is only one other person on the forum who could not do that or similar! And he could even dismantle and rebuild a moggy minor.

RAB

 

[susbees]

I didn't have a dummy board available

You have 6 brood frames a whole super of frames, but no dummy board?

Surely you could have cut a piece of hardboard/6mm ply/similar to size and pinned/screwed/nailed/glued/whatevered it to the side of one of the super/brood frames/top bars and dropped it in as a dummy/divider. We are really talking simple practical beekeeping here, not rocket development!

There is only one other person on the forum who could not do that or similar! And he could even dismantle and rebuild a moggy minor.

RAB

Maybe the OP can knit? Coats for his bees.... Seriously though with the best will in the world bees need warmth to work wax and rear brood.

 

[drstitson]

"I gradually moved it inwards towards the center being carefull not to "isolate" brood"

I'm still waiting for PH to contribute to this thread.....

 

[Sootydog]

Wow !!
I thought this was a pleasant forum!! Read again..........

Five frame nuc plus 6 frames of foundation = 11 frames .... plus a super.

AND it was chucking it down with rain when I got the bees AND I thought all my kit had been nicked (see stolen hives thread)

 

[drstitson]

"I thought this was a pleasant forum!!"

it is. but....

you provided some background info and asked a question. You got answers/suggestions ie what you requested (although not necessarily what you wanted to hear).

"AND it was chucking it down with rain when I got the bees"

did you get the bees in a temporary travel box or a proper nuc? if the latter they could happily have been left in it until weather better for a controlled transfer into new hive (at same position as the nuc was). if the former then you had no choice BUT whoever provided it should have given instructions what to do....

 

[oliver90owner]

I read again......as far as about a month ago

That was enough to give me the distinct impression that a dividing board was not even considered. There is no real excuse for leaving you nuc colony with a cavern to heat as well as drawing comb and servicing brood for expansion. It is well documented in all the good bee books. You may well have got away with it - without noticing any delay - if the weather had been seasonably warm, but it has not been so very good for bees, in many places, for much of May.

Furthermore, the inexperienced would not know whether the colony expansion were delayed or not. I can tell you it would be.

All the good books will undoubtedly tell you that no flow = no drawing of comb; and about the 'June gap'.

I counted 6 brood frames and a super of frames - all available and only one needed to be modified temporarily to act as a divider....any time, preferably the sooner the better after receiving the colony.

There are lots on the forum who might not say anything about it, but I can assure you that they will not improve your beekeeping by ignoring those ommissions/shortcomings - and they may well be doing/have done exactly the same, perpetuating the belief that the bees need no help from the beekeeper apart from feeding (often unecessarily) lots of sugar.

A far better (and honest(?)) response might have been 'I never thought of that, I will remember it for the future'.

You now know how, and how simple it is, to make a divider. Most of beekeeping is that simple, but first you have to think about it.

RAB

 

[Sootydog]

Oliver,
Seems that we got off " on the wrong foot". I have not had bees for about four years due to illness, prior to this I kept about 10 colonies fairly sucessfully for 8 years or so. I was lucky to have a "Master Beekeeper" as a mentor but we have sadly lost contact. I have also now lost my confidence in building this nuc up and getting it through the winter. I must admit I have never used a dummy board previously. I did have a seven frame nuc box but when I went back to my old out apriary it was missing !! So I took them from the travel box into the only brood box I was left with and stuffed it full of foundation, shut down the ventilation and closed the entrance down. I thought this was for the best. Please advise why a sheet of ply would be preferable to a sheet of foundation. The bees I have now are the best natured I have ever come across and I don't want to loose them.