Robbing of old honey comb (fermentation)

[SS_Smith]

I had a hive die out last year, but left the Brood box with honey in it sealed until now on a spare hive stand next to my other hives. Half of the frames contained honey and the others were drawn but not used. So the honey has been sitting there for some time and I think is fermented

Went in today to get a couple of drawn frames without honey to use in one of my splits and forgot to seal up the box. When I noticed 4 hours later there was obviously lots of robbing going on.

I didn't want to feed these honey frames back to my bees before harvest as I was concerned that when mixed it may spoil the new honey.

Is this likely to have an affect on this years harvest or will the bees deal with any fermentation etc before they restore the honey?

 

[Poly Hive]

Beware aggressive hung over bees....

PH

 

[pargyle]

What made you think the honey had fermented ? If the honey frames were capped it's unlikely that there was any fermentation. If it was uncapped .. it should not have been left in an empty hive .. and may have gone off. If it was smelly then I suspect you left unripe honey in there.

Bees are remarkably adept at sorting out our mess .. if they have taken honey that has fermented they will process it before storing it. If it was capped honey they robbed out - no problem.

It's a lesson learned ... I had a fiull, capped, super completely robbed out in less than a day last year when I temporarily left it on top of an empty but sealed brood box and didn't notice the roof was not quite on square ... amazing how quickly they find honey and even more amazing how quickly they can rob it out ...

 

[Karol]

Why did the hive die out? Also, any evidence of wax moth?

 

[SS_Smith]

Why did the hive die out? Also, any evidence of wax moth?

I didn't see any evidence of wax moth or other issues.

It just didn't seem to take off, I re-queened with a purchased Queen and all seemed good for a few weeks then it went down hill. Seems as though she just stopped laying late in the season.

About 2/3 was capped honey the rest uncapped. About 4 brood frames in total.

 

[pargyle]

I didn't see any evidence of wax moth or other issues.

..all seemed good for a few weeks then it went down hill. Seems as though she just stopped laying late in the season.

I lost one over winter like that ... there were some poorly mated queens around last year .. the one I lost I think just didn't lay up enough winter bees and although the hive appeared to be well stocked with bees I suspect they were mostly from late summer and not the young stock you want going into winter. They just dwindled.. plenty of stores - no sign of disease or a heavy varroa load (they were checked for varroa in the late autumn and a nosema check on the dead ones was negative... from what I heard around me there were quite a few like that.

 

[SS_Smith]

I've been watching some youtube about splits and queen refering by some guy from up north who sells queen's.

In one of his videos he says that over the years raising queen's has got worse and that this year he thinks he got about 30% success rate and next year he's going to inseminate.

Hardly surprising that my one last year failed of the 4 I've tried this year I've got 1 good splitt and one mediocre.

 

[Poly Hive]

Sorry but so say capped honey won't ferment is not correct I have seen it times. Honey after all is hydroscopic and will absorb moisture in the comb. we are not talking Egyptian sealed posts here but comb.

PH

 

[Walrus]

I've been watching some youtube about splits and queen refering by some guy from up north who sells queen's.

In one of his videos he says that over the years raising queen's has got worse and that this year he thinks he got about 30% success rate and next year he's going to inseminate.

Hardly surprising that my one last year failed of the 4 I've tried this year I've got 1 good splitt and one mediocre.

Randy Oliver wrote an article modeling nuc growth:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/modeling-nuc-buildup/

I would always prefer to add a mated queen to a "split" rather than leaving them to make a queen, because they are up and running straight away. Having said that I have left a few nucs with a cell this year and all went well.

At this time of the year I make 5/6F nucs with lots of bees/brood because wasps are a pain here and they hammer anything weak.

 

[pargyle]

Sorry but so say capped honey won't ferment is not correct I have seen it times. Honey after all is hydroscopic and will absorb moisture in the comb. we are not talking Egyptian sealed posts here but comb.

PH

I don't think anyone has said it won't ferment ... just that it is unlikely .. it won't normally absorb further moisture if the cells have been fully capped ... beeswax is impermeable to water.

Certainly it will absorb water if the cells are not capped or are onlly partially capped.

The other possibility is that the bees have capped honey that has not been fully ripened .. it can happen and if it is not fully ripened it could ferment in the cells .. unlikely but possible.

 

[Millet]

Randy Oliver wrote an article modeling nuc growth:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/modeling-nuc-buildup/

At this time of the year I make 5/6F nucs with lots of bees/brood because wasps are a pain here and they hammer anything weak.

I made five 6 frames nucs last year and three this year the same as you describe..the wasps are still a pain at my main site but more than anything it is my other colonies that cause the biggest problem...i had one nuc over powered last year and almost robbed to the point of no return...i had to emergency feed with sugar syrup sprayed directly into the brood frames and then move them 65 miles away..
I had the same problem this year with the three i made..the bees started robbing one in big numbers so i had to move it to the other side of the garden...the robbing bees then moved onto the next one and the other..all three had to be closed up and moved 65 miles away...you will know what it is like but it is unbelievable how quickly bees robbing another colony can empty it of stores..

 

[Bakerbee]

This thread is close to helping me answer a question. When recombining AS back into an original hive thats on double brood, what do you do with the spare brood box with frames of partial uncapped honey and pollen. Is freezing the only way to not waste their work?

 

[Millet]

This thread is close to helping me answer a question. When recombining AS back into an original hive thats on double brood, what do you do with the spare brood box with frames of partial uncapped honey and pollen. Is freezing the only way to not waste their work?

All those frames are valuable when making nucs up with mated Queens..it saves feeding nucs and it also gives them a head start..

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

I don't think anyone has said it won't ferment ... just that it is unlikely .. it won't normally absorb further moisture if the cells have been fully capped ... beeswax is impermeable to water.

Certainly it will absorb water if the cells are not capped or are onlly partially capped.

The other possibility is that the bees have capped honey that has not been fully ripened .. it can happen and if it is not fully ripened it could ferment in the cells .. unlikely but possible.

I kept a super of capped honey through the Winter, sealed up in my garage - plywood and plastic sheeting under and on top of the box.
On extracting in June, (as the bees didn't need it through the Winter), it smelled of fermentation, was very runny and had a strong aftertaste. I assumed that despite sealing up it had started the fermentation process. Testing with a hygrometer showed a 20.5 percent water content.
I'm fairly sure it absorbed moisture through the Winter.
It's earmarked for my first attempt at making mead....

 

[Poly Hive]

Mead like computers works on the same principle.

Rubbish in: rubbish out.

Best honey please not the crap you can't think of a better use for.

PH

 

[GoEnviro]

Capped honey can definitely ferment over winter - we regularly see it when doing removals
Whether its a result of water absorption or being capped with too high a moisture content I do not know.