Re-queening: why do we get so het-up making sure the old queen/DLWs are out of the hive?

[Headnavigator]

Reflecting on the number of posts here where beekeepers are going nuts trying to find and eliminate old queens or drone-laying workers before introducing a new queen, and having been there myself, I am prompted to ask what the implications might be of simply putting a caged new queen, breaking the fondant tag after a few days, and letting nature take its course? After all, some of us miss supercedure or even swarm cells and unknowingly end up with the risk of more than one queen in the hive. Obviously the major risks are of the colony or the old queen killing the new, but equally (?) they may kill off the old, especially if she is a non-layer, surely? Is a swarm occasionally likely to arise from this procedure rather than a killing? Are there other outcomes that may ensue? Anyone know of any research done on this? I'm curious as we go to such extremes to avoid this.

 

[Lorenz]

My experience is that it is always the new queen they kill. A new queen may have cost good money. Not uncommon to pay £40. Shame to risk her being killed or even maimed by the incumbent queen.

 

[plumberman]

'cos I've just spent £40 on a new queen, or gone to the extent of raising one?

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I requeened two drone layers like this this year, by running in spare virgins and was successful. I took the view if I could not find HM and had spare queens then I had little to loose and everything to gain.

 

[Poly Hive]

Because in general if the precautions are not taken the risk of losing the new queen is high.

Can't point at research but I cannot think of a book that would disagree.

Personally I wouldn't even think of introducing a queen without knowing the recipient colony was q-

PH

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The thinking is:
If there is already a queen in there (whether a dud or not) the new one is a stranger - thus the workers or the old queen may get her.
If it's DLW's the bees think they have a queen thus the same outcome. in most cases you want to try and make the bees need a queen before you put the new one in.
And do you want to take the risk anyway if you've paid for the new one?

 

[Finman]

Reflecting on the number of posts here where beekeepers are going nuts trying to find and eliminate old queens or drone-laying workers before introducing a new queen, and having been there myself, I am prompted to ask what the implications might be of simply putting a caged new queen, breaking the fondant tag after a few days, and letting nature take its course? After all, some of us miss supercedure or even swarm cells and unknowingly end up with the risk of more than one queen in the hive. Obviously the major risks are of the colony or the old queen killing the new, but equally (?) they may kill off the old, especially if she is a non-layer, surely? Is a swarm occasionally likely to arise from this procedure rather than a killing? Are there other outcomes that may ensue? Anyone know of any research done on this? I'm curious as we go to such extremes to avoid this.

why black is black and not white ?

 

[Headnavigator]

Just like to question received wisdom from time to time; listening to experienced beekeepers it does seem that some don't don't always do things in the 'accepted' way and get good results all the same. Hence I ask questions as I like to know whether what I am doing is a custom or tradition, or a serious factually-based procedure that has been properly researched.

 

[nikca]

why black is black and not white ?

It's this kind of comment that I used to love from Juha Kankunnen "Ja - I won because I drove faster than the others" and of course Kimmi Raikonnen
"So Kimmi - What's it like being 5th on the grid. It's the 5th grid place..."
"The helmet has a special meaning for many drivers. How important is it to you? - It protects my head."
"Do you have any special rituals when the helmet is concerned like many have? - I wipe it so that I can see better."


Must be something in the water

Sorry for thread drift...

 

[Finman]

.
I was right!. It is 2 hive owner!

 

[Finman]

It's this kind of comment that I used to love from Juha Kankunnen "Ja - I won because I drove faster than the others" and of course Kimmi Raikonnen
"So Kimmi - What's it like being 5th on the grid. It's the 5th grid place..."
"The helmet has a special meaning for many drivers. How important is it to you? - It protects my head."
"Do you have any special rituals when the helmet is concerned like many have? - I wipe it so that I can see better."

.

oh boy. Finnish humour at its bets

we loved Tarzan jokes:

-.what Tarzan said whe sheep came over hill?
- Tarzan: sheep are going over hill

what Tarzan said when cheep came again over hill?
- Tarzan: Jane has left the gate open again

.
Our famous Matti Nykänen invented 50%-60% rule

.

 

[beehive1234]

Perhaps we should let the queens fight it out.
We would be giving nature back a little control and perhaps Queens would be cheaper?
How do you know that £40 queen is worth her weight in gold?

 

[psafloyd]

Perhaps we should let the queens fight it out.
We would be giving nature back a little control and perhaps Queens would be cheaper?
How do you know that £40 queen is worth her weight in gold?

Actually, at £40, she is worth (or cost) slightly more than her weight in gold.

Clearly she has a value or else why the hell would anyone buy one (yeah, I know, I know)?

Which is why I would be sure there isn't any kind of queen present before I even considered getting one in.

 

[Finman]

Perhaps we should let the queens fight it out.
We would be giving nature back a little control and perhaps Queens would be cheaper?
How do you know that £40 queen is worth her weight in gold?

k. A beginner comes and says, we need a research.

But the queen setting is so well known that we do not need research

bees variate their mind according summer that rules do not work if somebody is ready to do them.

The last usefull research has been made in Australia. It says that if you move under 2 weeks ago mated queen to another hive,
and the queen is sended via post, bees supercede 30% of them.

I have a punch queen installing tricks as well other beekeepers do. If 2-hive owner does not know them, it s not a reason to research.

 

[Finman]

How do you know that £40 queen is worth her weight in gold?

it is price of 5 kg honey. Not gold. The weight of queen is about 200 mg.

Your frame prices are treamendous. It is 3-fold compared to Sweden and Finland.
You need 50 frames in one hive. Hive boxes are douple price.
A frame here is 50 cents.

You are going to save money in wrong place.

 

[Andy Duff]

.
I was right!. It is 2 hive owner!

OI! Finman, there is nothing wrong with being a 2 hive owner. We started with 1 hive (waste of time), increase to 2 hives, then we started beekeeping and now we have 4 colonies. Some people can't manage 1 hive correctly

 

[lancee]

Queens fighting ?