Question about wild comb

[mintmoth]

I've been reading this thread
Help! Wild Honey headache!
and it set me wondering...



How deep can bees ( in an empty hive or feral situation) build comb in our British climate before it becomes too heavy to remain intact when filled? Can they sense when comb is becoming unstable and so stop increasing its size?

Or is it governed by the desire to keep the nest in a rugby ball shape? Or the amount of spiral sweeps the queen makes as she lays before the first laid cells are empty again and so she returns to the middle? (does that bit make sense?)

Do feral bees always brace comb to the walls as well as the "roof" if they can, to give added support, or do they prefer free hanging comb?

Sorry, multiple questions in one

 

[Finman]

.
Bees prefer to select about 40 litre cavity. It is about Langstroth size box.

Idea is not to make combs in open air, because heat escaped from the hive. But Apis cerana prefer to make nest in open air, against simple wall or under roof.

 

[dexter's shed]

if you think about it, bees always build up to the edge, it's us that put in the bee space by using a frame, so feral will brace at the edges

 

[BeeJayBee]

Or is [the depth of wild comb] governed by the desire to keep the nest in a rugby ball shape? Or the amount of spiral sweeps the queen makes as she lays before the first laid cells are empty again and so she returns to the middle? (does that bit make sense?)

The brood area tends to be in the lower part of natural comb because our European bees prefer to store their food above their nest. It's why we put honey supers above, rather than below, the brood box. The rugby ball shape expands and contracts throughout the season, and, if the bees are left to their own devices, can move up, down or sideways.

There's a 'wild' box at Black Horse Apiary. Somebody may have more recent photos than the ones on their website, but you might be able to guesstimate the depth of the comb http://www.blackhorseapiaries.org.uk/Gallery/pages/creation_JPG.htm and http://www.blackhorseapiaries.org.uk/Gallery/pages/deepcomb_JPG.htm

Maybe reading about Warre beekeeping will help answer your questions? Try here (close the gaps in url) http:// warre[/url]. biobees .com/methods.htm

 

[mintmoth]

if you think about it, bees always build up to the edge, it's us that put in the bee space by using a frame, so feral will brace at the edges

I thought they built in a catenary curve which was free hanging. Do they extend this until it touches the walls then?

The brood area tends to be in the lower part of natural comb because our European bees prefer to store their food above their nest. It's why we put honey supers above, rather than below, the brood box. The rugby ball shape expands and contracts throughout the season, and, if the bees are left to their own devices, can move up, down or sideways.

There's a 'wild' box at Black Horse Apiary. Somebody may have more recent photos than the ones on their website, but you might be able to guesstimate the depth of the comb ...and http://www.blackhorseapiaries.org.uk/Gallery/pages/deepcomb_JPG.htm

Maybe reading about Warre beekeeping will help answer your questions? Try here (close the gaps in url) http:// warre[/url]. biobees .com/methods.htm

So if there are a lot of stores coming in, do the bees just keep expanding the brood nest downwards and put stores in vacated cells above? But what happens when the weight of honey, brood and bees becomes too much for the comb to support? Or does that never happen?

Thanks for the lovely image of honeycomb

 

[ugcheleuce]

There's a 'wild' box at Black Horse Apiary.

Not entirely wild, though, because on this photo you can see that they put starter strips only in the middle of the top bars, instead of the entire length of the top bars, which means explains why the bees made their nest in the middle of the cavity (it also might explain why they don't explan the comb more to the sides of the box, as the starter strips don't go that far). I wonder if the bees would have build their nest in the centre of the cavity if the starter strips covered the entire width of the top bar. It is also likely that they would not have built their comb in such neat rows if there hadn't been starter strips (like in Japan where they don't use top bars but a top board).

==
http://www.blackhorseapiaries.org.uk/Gallery/pages/nest2_JPG.htm

 

[dexter's shed]

just search for a few video's on top bar hives, the bees brace against the side walls and the beekeeper then uses a knife to cut them free on inspections, bees are an intelligent creature, think about it, when we do a cut out and insert their comb into frames with rubber bands, within days they re fix it in position and chew away the bands, rather than just leaving it

 

[mintmoth]

Tx DS I'll go check out youtube

 

[bontbee]

I took a colony out of an old chimney that was being dismantled and some of the combs were over 2'6" deep. They were braced to the sides, and, perhaps, of more importance were the plants' roots which had grown through the mortar into the cavity of the chimney. The roots were really "wiry" and the comb was fashioned to incorporate them. Some of the comb might have been even deeper as a couple of combs lost chunks off the bottom as they were lifted out - possibly severed by the cheese-wire like roots or just because of the weight!

Good job that, very nice natured bees!

 

[BeeJayBee]

I thought they built in a catenary curve which was free hanging. Do they extend this until it touches the walls then?

Yes, they start building curved comb and extend it outwards and attach where they can.

So if there are a lot of stores coming in, do the bees just keep expanding the brood nest downwards and put stores in vacated cells above? But what happens when the weight of honey, brood and bees becomes too much for the comb to support? Or does that never happen?

They build downwards. The honey goes at the top where there comb is stronger, more especially if those cells have already contained brood because the cell walls will be reinforced cellulose.

Try breaking a really old brood comb, it's very strong.

Not entirely wild, though, because on this photo you can see that they put starter strips ...

It's an old picture from when it was originally set up. It's been completely unmanaged since then, which is why I hope somebody may have a more recent image. When I saw this bee box, or whatever they call it, some years ago there was much more comb and, as far as I remember, it wasn't all in the middle of the box.

It is, by the way, normally enclosed with ply panels.

 

[masterBK]

the cell walls will be reinforced cellulose.

Do you mean chitin, sclerotin ?

 

[BeeJayBee]

the cell walls will be reinforced cellulose.

Do you mean chitin, sclerotin ?

Yes, I do.

 

[mintmoth]

I took a colony out of an old chimney that was being dismantled and some of the combs were over 2'6" deep. They were braced to the sides, and, perhaps, of more importance were the plants' roots which had grown through the mortar into the cavity of the chimney. The roots were really "wiry" and the comb was fashioned to incorporate them. Some of the comb might have been even deeper as a couple of combs lost chunks off the bottom as they were lifted out - possibly severed by the cheese-wire like roots or just because of the weight!

Good job that, very nice natured bees!

Thanks bontbee, that's just the sort of thing I was curious about, whether the bees would keep on building down.

 

[mintmoth]

Thanks BJB and everyone, I think you've about covered all my q's for me. Very interesting and informative replies

 

[Queen Brenda]

I hope you don't mind to me hijacking your question about wild comb.

I've just been into the roof to add the last of some fondant as they gobbled up the last lot very fast. I was hoping to have had a proper look inside by now but too cold. We put the fondant into a plastic box with a hole with a lid over the feed hole in the crown board. Today I found a beautiful bit of brace comb extending from near the feed hole up to the lid of the plastic box. The comb had a few eggs and larvae, no sign of the queen who must have scuttled downstairs. Not wanting to scrape off this comb, I'm afraid I left it. Was this wrong? I suppose when I next look in, there will be solid comb up there?

What to do? I suppose they may be short of space - just a single national BB at the moment. I have a QX and another box ready to put on but thought too cold to disrupt them so far.

 

[enrico]

They may not be short of space, just building comb close to where the food is! They can feed and keep the brood warm at the same time! But......I would have taken it out as a precaution!
E