Queen won't leave her old brood box!

[Colinkemp]

I have inherited 3 hives on commercial brood boxes. They are very old and the boxes are full of old black wild comb, heavily propolised and the frames are impossible to remove without destroying them completely.
I wish to transfer the colonies to new National frame brood boxes.
I put a new clean national brood box of foundation on top of the old brood box hoping for a Bailey comb change. The bees have drawn the new comb, put some pollen around the centre area and filled the rest with honey. No sign of any eggs or brood on any of the 3 hives!
I extracted the honey, mostly OSR, and replaced the frames. They are now being filled again with honey. Tried putting the entrance between the 2 boxes and closing the lower one to no effect.
Anyone have any idea how to persuade the queen to move up to the new clean quarters? The above applies to all 3 hives.

 

[Hachi]

From your narrative it sounds like you haven't carried out the steps for a BC Change.

The easiest way, might be to treat them as a cut out. Remember too, the nat hive is smaller than a Comrcl so you might have problems getting them in or them [the bees] staying.

 

[madasafish]

I have inherited 3 hives on commercial brood boxes. They are very old and the boxes are full of old black wild comb, heavily propolised and the frames are impossible to remove without destroying them completely.
I wish to transfer the colonies to new National frame brood boxes.
I put a new clean national brood box of foundation on top of the old brood box hoping for a Bailey comb change. The bees have drawn the new comb, put some pollen around the centre area and filled the rest with honey. No sign of any eggs or brood on any of the 3 hives!
I extracted the honey, mostly OSR, and replaced the frames. They are now being filled again with honey. Tried putting the entrance between the 2 boxes and closing the lower one to no effect.
Anyone have any idea how to persuade the queen to move up to the new clean quarters? The above applies to all 3 hives.

So you have basically added supers.

Try switching box positions.

 

[Paul in Poole]

Try this method told to me by a large bee farmer in Northumberland.
With the new box above the old brood box apply copious amounts of smoke under lower box for say 4-5 mins such that all the bees and queen will go up into top box.
Remove bottom box and put it above a queen excluder on the new box. Check a day or two later for the queen being in the new box.
It worķed for me.

 

[enrico]

Think like the bees! The queen wants to lay in the bottom box to allow room for stores in the upper boxes. She doesn't even realise they are boxes, she is just using the frames that are in the right position for what she wants to do. If you swap those two boxes around the queen will move down and they will move the nectar up. She won't lay above the honey
If you can give her a couple of empty drawn frames to start laying immediately below the present brood it will help.
It is no guarantee but I can't see why it won't work!
E

 

[Swarm]

So you have basically added supers.

Try switching box positions.

 

[Colinkemp]

Thanks Madasafish. I will try swopping the brood boxes when the wind drops, which could be tomorrow, and then see what happens.

 

[Colinkemp]

Thanks, Enrico. Will try that tomorrow, weather permitting, and give her a couple of weeks.

 

[Colinkemp]

Thanks Paul in Poole, I am going to try the straight swop first, and if that is not successful try the more aggressive approach as you suggested.

 

[Colinkemp]

Well I've changed the position of the old and new brood boxes on all three hives. One hive was found to have eggs and some grubs in the new brood but was changed anyway. Let's see what happens in a couple of weeks.

 

[enrico]

Don't forget to let us know!
E

 

[Colinkemp]

Certainly won't, Enrico. Really appreciate the advice on this forum.

 

[Colinkemp]

Update.
Checked the three hives yesterday. Not a single egg or grub in any of the new brood boxes that I put under the old brood boxes. They don't seem in the least interested in moving to new quarters.
Since it was a hot day the propolis holding the old brood frames was quite sticky allowing me to find my way in to two of the old brood boxes and cut interlocking comb so frames can now be removed for inspection. On the third box the frames were well and truly stuck.
I'll give them a bit more time and check again later.

 

[madasafish]

Update.
Checked the three hives yesterday. Not a single egg or grub in any of the new brood boxes that I put under the old brood boxes. They don't seem in the least interested in moving to new quarters.
Since it was a hot day the propolis holding the old brood frames was quite sticky allowing me to find my way in to two of the old brood boxes and cut interlocking comb so frames can now be removed for inspection. On the third box the frames were well and truly stuck.
I'll give them a bit more time and check again later.

If your weather has been like ours (cold,wet), then they will not be laying and have had a brood break.

 

[Colinkemp]

I'm hoping that is the case.

 

[MerryBee]

If your weather has been like ours (cold,wet), then they will not be laying and have had a brood break.

If your weather has been as poor as mine, there will have been very little flow. Once the flow really gets going the honey will be stored above the brood and the brood area will move down into the lower box.

Be patient.

 

[Colinkemp]

Update 2.
Did an inspection yesterday. Still not a single egg or grub/brood in any of the 3 new brood boxes but some honey. Lots of honey in the upper (old) brood boxes and sealed brood.
Still being patient....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hasn't anyone thought of the obvious?
Find the queen, put in new brood box,put QX between the old and new, job done