Queen mating / inbreeding !!!

[Finman]

I think that an unselected stock, of whatever sub-species, exhibits a range of behaviour. The paper discusses the effects on inbreeding in queens and workers in a highly selected population:

"Inbreeding of workers

In contrast, queens with moderate inbreeding give colonies "

I.

I cannot understand inbreeding of workers and queens.
What is the difference?

 

[Finman]

I know a professional beekeeper, which has stock, which is extremely calm and non swarming. But hives have only 3 boxes in the middle of summer. I do not want that kind of bees. They must be inbreeded quite far.

But all kind of cases are so much.

 

[B+.]

I know a professional beekeeper, which has stock, which is extremely calm and non swarming. But hives have only 3 boxes in the middle of summer. I do not want that kind of bees. They must be inbreeded quite far.

But all kind of cases are so much.

It is possible to select for bees which are calm on the comb during an inspection and which do not attack while, at the same time, neglecting honey production. I would think this is a mistake. Wouldn't you? With a selected population, you look for uniformity at a higher than average level. Not individual "blinders" that cost you more in management time.

You can read more about the way the system works here https://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/ZWS/Startseiten/englisch/Bienenzucht-Start-Ligustica.html
As you can see, selection is performed based upon a range of criteria

 

[B+.]

I cannot understand inbreeding of workers and queens.
What is the difference?

It is better if you read the paper.

In a nutshell, if the queen had mated with a number of closely related drones, her workers would carry a degree of inbreeding. However, if the queens mother had mated with a number of drones that were closely related, the larvae which formed both queen and workers in her colony would be inbred.

What he is saying is that there is a different effect depending on whether it is the queen or worker that is inbred. Inbred workers are calmer on the comb during inspection and are less likely to attack although there is an increased tendency to swarm. Although I don't think his paper was restricted to Carniolans, I suspect this is what people observe when they say Carniolans are more inclined to swarm.

 

[Finman]

.
It must have some purpose, why to cross towards that or towards that.
Just crossing here or there has no meaning.

Like advice that breed off EFB from English bee stock. What guys do, they burn hives.

Another example is chalkbrood. English university wants to develope sensitive hygienic stock which carry off contaminated larvae. But they should know, that there are allready bee stocks, which do not become sick for chalkbrood.

Discussion should be more on realistic level , what are we talking about.

 

[Hivemaker.]

.
... what are we talking about.

Garbage.

 

[B+.]

Garbage.

Perhaps it is the language barrier but I do not understand what Finman was trying to say.
He would understand better if he read the link http://www.coloss.org/beebook/I/queen-rearing particularly the section on performance testing. He could also read https://www2.hu-berlin.de/beebreed/ZWS/Zuchtwertschaetzung/zuchtwert_erklaerung_en.html for an explanation of the way that breeding values work

 

[Finman]

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I have reared queens 50 years. Perhaps I should read something, but what?

Long time ago I draw a conclusion, that it is not possible to keep on own bee stock. I buy good queens from professional beekeepers, who have several hundred hives. It is easier to select a good mother hive from 300 hives than from 20. In twenty hives most are hybrids and mongrels and actually alternatives are near zero.

So I buy good queens, and rear first generation from those. But very often I have found that those quality queens may be what ever. I suspect that in bad cases professionals sell what evet material what is like queen. It is not difficult to take swarming cells into cage and mate them. Our climate is not frienly to queen business.

Quality of bought queens are sometimes odd.


But I have my criterions in queen rearing. But my material is not so big, that I arrange inbreeding.

.

 

[Finman]

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Nowadays I abandon supercede queens. Hive changes the queen, because it has some problem. The quality from superceding queens have been miserable. They are average or less, but not good. For example they seldom are able to lay two langstroth boxes.

This one of my criterions.

 

[B+.]

. Perhaps I should read something, but what?

I sympathize with you completely. This is the situation in England too. Please read the links in my earlier posts. I think you will understand what I am talking about so much better.

 

[Finman]

I sympathize with you completely. This is the situation in England too. Please read the links in my earlier posts. I think you will understand what I am talking about so much better.

L
I looked those links and there is nothing new to me in that knowledge.

I have even best quality queen breeding book at home, but I do not sell 1000 queens per year.

For example, Coloss catalogue is too perfect. More naive than realistic.

"you must calculate that queen lays over 2000 eggs per day" That makes no sense. No one start to calculate queens eggs.

Grafting tool standard. ...
How to find a larva from comb..... Ridiculous advices. If he does not find a larva, he cannot be a queen breeder.

 

[Finman]

.
What is a interesting feature in bee breeding is that my Italian bees should store more pollen, that I could steal frames for early build up feeding. When I had Elgon bees, they stored huge amounts of pollen. Like one hive brought in June 90 kg hpney and two boxes pollen. But, 80% of daughters of that queen were sensitive to chalkbrood.

Another hive at same time brought 70 kg in June im same yard and only 20% out of daughters were sensitive to chalkbrood.

.

 

[B+.]

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What is a interesting feature in bee breeding is that my Italian bees should store more pollen, that I could steal frames for early build up feeding. When I had Elgon bees, they stored huge amounts of pollen. Like one hive brought in June 90 kg hpney and two boxes pollen. But, 80% of daughters of that queen were sensitive to chalkbrood.

Another hive at same time brought 70 kg in June im same yard and only 20% out of daughters were sensitive to chalkbrood.

.

You are talking about individual colonies that perform exceptionally well (what I called "blinders" earlier from the german word "blinden") but you have failed to grasp the point.

What is the point of one colony that brings in 90kg in a day(and turns it all to brood) if the others are significantly lower? It is the mean score of all sister queens you need to look at. This is simple statistics. That one colony was probably taking up all your time too.

Personally, I wouldn't want a line of bees where 80% of the daughters were susceptible to disease. This is why measuring a colony against a single characteristic (honey production) is insufficient.

 

[B+.]

L
I looked those links and there is nothing new to me in that knowledge..

I'm sorry that you feel that way. It is the performance management section that I thought you would be interested in (not the earlier introduction which you seem to have taken offence at)

 

[Finman]

What is the point of one colony that brings in 90kg in a day(and turns it all to brood) if the others are significantly lower? It is the mean score of all sister queens you need to look at. This is simple statistics. That one colony was probably taking up all your time too.

.

You drink too much.... That hive brought honey in one MONTH June 90 kg and I extracted it. Then I moved it to rape&firefeed pastures.

It was SURPLUS HONEY, NOT EATEN.

taking up my time. How?

 

[B+.]

You drink too much....

Actually, I was trying to rush an answer to you before leaving for a meeting. I hadn't been drinking.

Well...if you are happy doing what you do, I am happy for you

Good luck with your bees

 

[Finman]

Good luck with your bees

I do not trust on luck in beekeeping. As it have been said: " Lord helps only those, who help themselves".

.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

I do not trust on luck in beekeeping. As it have been said: " Lord helps only those, who help themselves".

.

For the sake of accuracy - and I know how much you like accuracy, Finman - the sentence first codified in this format is, "God helps those who help themselves" (Algernon Sidney). That is a slight but significant difference.

However, it first originated in Aesop's Fables, where it appears twice.

Dusty.

 

[Finman]

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Jep. Accuracy above all! Like Germans say: Das Ordnung!

My favorit: Do not do as I say, use your own brains.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

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My favorit: Do not do as I say, use your own brains.

Actually, Finski, I prefer to use YOURS. YOUR brain told MY hands, via a server probably in California, to throw my QE in the willow bushes. The idea of buying all queens is interesting at 7 jars each; my Pete Little / Hivemaker. Q is doing really well so far.

Add: Oh and Dusty's - into the garage with the 6mm ply this weekend...