Queen cells

[JamesB]

JamesB,

every other person (beekeepers) most with over 20 to 30yrs + experience advise me they head down

If you could show me one case where a colony built comb from the floor to the roof, I would be happy to believe you. Until then, I will go with all those that advocate the correct facts that comb is normally built from the highest point in the box and is built downwards - which is where the queen heads, in any situation she might have control over.

When a swarm is hived they will always build downwards which means that queenie went upwards until she could go no further (the workers follow the queen
- as in standard swarm collection procedures for example?).

She will then lay in the uppermost comb she can (it not having a honey arch) and she will lay at the uppermost practical point for a compact, spherical (ideal) nest to conserve as much heat energy as possible (minimum surface area per unit volume).

Only then will she be moved down by the bees as they draw new comb (downwards) and, more to the point, fill above with honey. They will, in fact, not draw appreciable amounts of comb below the nest, beyond the practical limits for comb building (it's shape), until needed.

From what im lead to understand, if your Queen is injured the workers will in fact kill her

Wrong again. They will supercede her. They are not so stupid as to lose their only egg layer before a replacement is available, if at all possible.

I fear you are a little muddled, and are mixing the normal facts of hive life with the unwanted effects of interfering humans, when, after handling (clipping, marking) they (the queen) may not be recognised as the 'queen proper' and are balled by the workers, just as most other alien life-form would be when invading their space.

Hope this helps you read the post carefully. Poly Hive was, of course, refering to the queen. So the only usual way the queen would move downwards is if the space above was filled.

RAB

Well ive seen the same in meetings where people sit around the table advocating their knowledge and in disagreement, im a 5th generation beekeeper (little hands on experience) but my dad now 71 has 30 yrs, his dad 50 yrs and his dad knew william carr, my credentials and exp im happy with,
yes bees on a swarm hang and build downward yes ive have 'seen' workers kill a injured queen that has been clipped leaving no queen in the hive however they did generate a emergency queen, and yes bees can be that stupid.

Having only a few years exp myself and learning from my father many things he does you wont agree with, but the last inspection by a official commented our hives are mite free and if everyone did my my father does then they would be little problems,
infact he invited others down on our last inspections to look.
-
Love to see grown men argue about things such as this but ill continue learning taking everything thats advised and make my own decision based on my own experience.
out of 100 + hives my dad owned , all were disease free and healthy however he did it and what ever he believed the end result justifys the means and his knowledge.

Whats said and advised on these forums ill remember and apply if necessary but to be told im wrong and wrong again makes me giggle when i hear older generation beekeepers (age group of retiring etc) say 'im always learning new things' , or 'whatever i thought i knew the girls always suprise me'

 

[Hivemaker.]

Having only a few years exp myself and learning from my father many things he does you wont agree with, but the last inspection by a official commented our hives are mite free and if everyone did my my father does then they would be little problems,

Can you please expand on exactly what your father does to keep his hives completely varroa free.

 

[Finno]

Just a few eggs and larvae in the last few inspections but found three good sized sealed queen cells two days ago. Think if there is a queen she is injured (not much brood and hasn't been much for a while). Thought it was queenless four weeks ago but then found small patches of brood in a super.

This sounds like drone laying queen or more probably, given the description of the brood nest layout, laying workers. Laying workers will often draw out "queen cells" - these will have smooth walls whereas genuine queen cells have a dimpled surface similar to thimble.

P F

 

[JamesB]

Well hes still passing info to me as time go's on but he said one of the older chaps that has since passed away advocated the following (and this is only what has been passed down and ive yet to get more info from him)
anyway sofar ive managed to get the following info from him;

1) Regular inspections, at least weekly;
every inspection he cleans the floor or replaces it with a new clean one
It was discussed that leaving bees for too long between inspections causes problems nowadays
2) He addshe used to add some tobacco (pipe tobacco) to the smoker, only a small amount, exact quantities im not sure or the make of it (this method isnt used at every inspection btw)
I remember when we got a new swarm appear in a empty hive he prepared and left open to receive/attract a swarm he gave them a smoke with a little tobacco added to the mix of broken down egg boxes and we actually saw some mites fall off the backs of the bees, and then again about 10 or so days later,
later inspections showed no mites on the active bees and no mites on larvae )drone or otherwise.)
3) He steadfastly refuses to use chemicals in the hive, advising me why if there isnt a problem put manmade chemicals in there, (and i do on a weekly basis advise shouldnt we be using anti varroa methods etc - he replies why if there isnt a problem)

Now this is what hes passed on to me and was passed onto him, if hes right or wrong he will stubornly refuse to listen to people who say hes wrong argueing his experience and success (age i guess)
He generally advises regular inspections, cleaning of the brood floor or changing it with a new one (he doesnt use the mesh ones even though ive been trying to advocate getting them because of what ive read and heard)

The more you interact the happier the bees are and the happier the bees the more they produce,
He says problems appear leaving the hive and not regularly inspecting it or helping to clean it.

Now people can either hold their hands up and call him a fool thats their choice but end of the day i would be stupid not to listen to what he says and while hes active in our apiary i will do what he suggests,
When he gets too old and physically incapable (no doubt he will get to 150) i can make my own decisions but by then i would have picked up on various jargon etc and gained more experience.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Well hes still passing info to me as time go's on but he said one of the older chaps that has since passed away advocated the following (and this is only what has been passed down and ive yet to get more info from him)
anyway sofar ive managed to get the following info from him;

1) Regular inspections, at least weekly;
every inspection he cleans the floor or replaces it with a new clean one
It was discussed that leaving bees for too long between inspections causes problems nowadays
2) He addshe used to add some tobacco (pipe tobacco) to the smoker, only a small amount, exact quantities im not sure or the make of it (this method isnt used at every inspection btw)
I remember when we got a new swarm appear in a empty hive he prepared and left open to receive/attract a swarm he gave them a smoke with a little tobacco added to the mix of broken down egg boxes and we actually saw some mites fall off the backs of the bees, and then again about 10 or so days later,
later inspections showed no mites on the active bees and no mites on larvae )drone or otherwise.)
3) He steadfastly refuses to use chemicals in the hive, advising me why if there isnt a problem put manmade chemicals in there, (and i do on a weekly basis advise shouldnt we be using anti varroa methods etc - he replies why if there isnt a problem)

Now this is what hes passed on to me and was passed onto him, if hes right or wrong he will stubornly refuse to listen to people who say hes wrong argueing his experience and success (age i guess)
He generally advises regular inspections, cleaning of the brood floor or changing it with a new one (he doesnt use the mesh ones even though ive been trying to advocate getting them because of what ive read and heard)

The more you interact the happier the bees are and the happier the bees the more they produce,
He says problems appear leaving the hive and not regularly inspecting it or helping to clean it.

Now people can either hold their hands up and call him a fool thats their choice but end of the day i would be stupid not to listen to what he says and while hes active in our apiary i will do what he suggests,
When he gets too old and physically incapable (no doubt he will get to 150) i can make my own decisions but by then i would have picked up on various jargon etc and gained more experience.

Thanks James......will try changing the floors every week and see if this gets rid of the varroa then.....may even smoke while i'm inspecting,blow the odd puff or two over the bee's......does he change the crown boards evey week as well.

 

[JamesB]

nah - what we do every week is scrape clean the excluder, theres a quilt beneath the crown board so that fine, the quilt is changed once a month (cleaned etc)

The floor is swept weekly and the contents placed in a bag for inspection (he uses a magnifying glass)

Then once a month he swaps the floor for a washed one (no chemicals used except elbow grease and a nail brush)

he absolutely swears that using a bit of pipe tobacco once a month on a weekly inspection is necessary.
A inspector did take a sample of bee bits from 3 of the hives on one visit in june and a month later he rang up and said no varroa was evident

 

[Hivemaker.]

So what does the pipe tobacco do then..? I heard it shortened the life of the queens.

 

[JamesB]

So what does the pipe tobacco do then..? I heard it shortened the life of the queens.

I did look into this as curiosity a while ago when i first asked my dad, he didnt know either - he just siad it seems to work so as it works he does it,

anyways about 2 months ago i found this;

EXPERIMENTAL TRIAL

In Spring 1995 colonies showed some delay in their build up. A lot of crawling bees had been seen in front of the hives and on the ground. Hives in two apiaries were treated with tobacco leaves. 15-20 g of leaves were burned in the smoker with the material used for making smoke. It was used during routine examinations every week or as needed, in March, April and May. These colonies were shown to have greater populations and to yield more honey compared with two control hives kept near the apiary of 50 colonies. In the apiary with 30 colonies there were another 45 colonies which were not treated with tobacco smoke.

ASSESSMENT

In early August there was a check up and comparison between the colonies that had been treated with tobacco smoke and those which had not. There was a great difference in honeybee populations; those which had been treated being more populous. The bees were more active in foraging and collecting nectar.

CONCLUSION

Whatever the disease, I believe that tobacco smoke had beneficial effect on the colonies. We know that nicotine in tobacco smoke has some anaesthetic effect on insects in general, and it might have some lethal effect on mites and therefore some beneficial effect against the condition.

We believe now that the immune system of the bees is in some way diminished. By using tobacco smoke we are either hitting the primary target, or we might be curing a secondary pathogen. In either case we are helping our bees to get better!
-
Found on this link;

http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/use-of-tobacco-smoke-agai.shtml

 

[SkiBee]

John thanks so much. I will let you know how I get on. It was just a spur of the moment decision to post on this forum but I am so pleased I did. Guess I won't know if I have a new queen for a while anyway but I'll inspect again in a few days and also look to see if the queen cells are smooth (laying workers as one postee suggested). Perhaps there will be loads of eggs and happy bees!

Carole.

 

[SkiBee]

This sounds like drone laying queen or more probably, given the description of the brood nest layout, laying workers. Laying workers will often draw out "queen cells" - these will have smooth walls whereas genuine queen cells have a dimpled surface similar to thimble.

P F

Great advice I will be checking tomorrow to see if the queen cells are smooth. Such interesting replies, what an amazing resource of knowledge on this forum.

 

[Hivemaker.]

James we used to use tobacco in the smokers to detect if we had mites back in the early days...used to just knock them down onto sticky pads,not kill them...knocked the bee's out as well in some cases.

nicontine
neonicotinoids (a family of insecticides)

 

[JamesB]

James we used to use tobacco in the smokers to detect if we had mites back in the early days...used to just knock them down onto sticky pads,not kill them...knocked the bee's out as well in some cases.

nicontine
neonicotinoids (a family of insecticides)

Well i suppose it depends how much you use, im not suggesting its a cure or anything just passing on what a old beekeeper told my dad in the old days and what my dad uses now etc

still i suppose if you used pure nicotine it would kill the bees and whatever is riding on their back off, how i understand it plants that have nicotine in them use it to ward off insects i believe,
what works for one doesnt necessary work for another, like the inspector said he doesnt know if tobacco alone is the reason he just thinks its just down to good hive management and cleanliness etc

 

[Hivemaker.]

James......do you think that keeping all the woodwork nice and clean tends to prevent varroa mites from entering or wanting to live in a nice clean hive.

 

[beebreeder]

HM
Pehaps its the **** not the thymol LOL
kev

 

[Mike a]

Hi James

The post #24 you said -

The more you interact the happier the bees are

Can you clarify how often you would open a hive depending on the time of year please.

cheers

 

[JamesB]

Hi James

The post #24 you said -

Can you clarify how often you would open a hive depending on the time of year please.

cheers

once a week during warm weather, now the spinning is over and the colder weather approaches looks like we will be opening them up less often,

As this is my first year (starting in June) its been weekly inspections,
observing the hive, my dad pointing out the differant areas of the brood to look for,

ie egg laying pattern, differant stages of development from egg to new born etc
Identifying new workers that are nursery bees and so on and so forth, its been a very steep learning curve

watching for new queen cells and preventing swarming (none yet) and learning to encourage a swarm when necessary.
looking for queens
being told what diseases to look for (being shown pics mainly)
filling in inspection records
noting bee behaviour
cleaning racks, excluders and floors
being shown flowers/plants which the bees forage and times when they come into season
transfering racks of wing bees and brood from strong hives to weaker hives
preparing equipment - ie spinner, ripeners etc
building racks
making foundation

lol i digress , weekly inspections sofar, we will be feeding any week now so im getting prepped for that, assuming once the feeders are in place thats the only disturbing they will get once the cold weather arrives.

I get the feeling that sarcasm is being used lol - no i dont think anything other than what im seeing and experiencing, beekeeping has brought my dad and me closer together and its been succesful, we started with a old hive we found in my late grandfathers alotment we didnt know he had, rescued and it had been left that long the frames had deterioted that much the bees had bridge combed horizontally through the racks,
doubted they would survive tbh
since then we have obtained 4 more hives and my grandfathers has been gently and carefully managed so now its in a workable condition and strong to survive to next year with 4 others along side
.

 

[Mike a]

I get the feeling that sarcasm is being used lol

Not from me, I was genuinely interested in your post. Some of what I read seemed a bit different from lets say the " Norm " or may be I should rephrase that to what is being taught today or at least what I was taught, but by the sounds of it you have heard all about how bee keeping used to be for tens of years. The knowledge and experience passed down through the generations is wonderful as long as you also weed out any bad habits as well as you start your venture in bee keeping.
GL

 

[Hivemaker.]

Having only a few years exp myself

As this is my first year (starting in June)

Identifying new workers that are nursery bees and so on and so forth, its been a very steep learning curve

Confusing.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I get the feeling that sarcasm is being used lol

Of course its not James...never on the beekeeping forum..

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A[/ame]

 

[JamesB]

Having only a few years exp myself

As this is my first year (starting in June)

Identifying new workers that are nursery bees and so on and so forth, its been a very steep learning curve

Confusing.

i when i was a lad aged about 12 ish, i helped my dad with a smoker and basically fetched and carried, and helped with the spinning then jaring/labelling

this continued to about when i joined the army at 16 in 1985
during my spell in the army my dad was telling me of his antics (letters and visits on leave)
medically retired after a injury in NI and bascically continued with my life, during this time my dad retired from beekeeping at the age of 60 (mainly due to losing 75 hives when the local farmer sprayed his crops forgetting to tell my dad of a change of usual date) losing the hives.

Now at 41 this year in January i asked my dad how about starting up again, he was quite dismissive in January time, but my Grandfather died shortly before so he had plenty on his mind.

While sorting through my grandfathers estate/belongings we found a old hive in his allotment my dad gave him years back,

Rescueing this spurred my dad to make a decision to restart as a hobby with me
-
whence i do have a few years of knowledge as a lad but nothing hands on, its only been this year (approx June) that i have been on this learning curve and gaining hands on experience etc
apologies for the contradiction of a few years exp and starting this year in June
-
Yes i beleive my Dad has a tonee of abd of habits - this has been recognised by this forum, so when i take ove this venture i will be managing the bees my way using the 'golden rules' etc
until then its a csae of telling my dad new tricks and slowly convince him, but if im honest he is doing a lot right (mostly dated) but the end result now is we have my grandads hive (we spun about 5 Llbs off this and jarred it with a special label of a picture of him stating ' Grandad's Finest' and gave a jar each to local relatives ) and now 4 additions