Queen cells torn down

[Andy]

Today was a bit frustrating. I had a colony that was really not very nice. So I set it up in the ben harden configuration and killed the queen in the bottom box. I grafted from my nice queen and got 15 takes from 24 which I was delighted about as it’s only my 3rd try. This reduced to 14 by the time they all got capped. The hive was a nightmare, so to make it easier to handle I split it into nurse bees and flyers. The nurse bees had the majority of brood frames and the grafted cells. They got capped on Wednesday. I had a quick peak yesterday(sat) and they all seemed fine. Today I was kindly given a virgin and I was going to steal some bees to make a small mating hive. I found the cells were all torn down on the top bar and a couple on the bottom bar leaving me with only 6 cells. I grafted from larvae not much larger than the eggs. I also knocked back the queen cells on the frames of which there were not many as all the frames had been in a demaree. Could a queen emerge 3 days early? I’ve put a roller cage on them and emergence for the remainder is Wednesday hopefully. I was wondering if in the future I cage them as soon as they are capped. Does this have any implications as I understand the bees often help the queen out by chewing around the cap.

 

[Andy]

I’ve since put in a frame of larvae to try and establish if there is a virgin running about. I did also recheck the frames for queen cells and I could not find any. The frames are quite new so there are no hidey holes.

 

[user 819]

One usually raises QC's in an established laying QR colony, making them QL destabalises a colony .

A newly mated Q or VQ to a colony is like a new acquisition so any attempts to add QC's or grafts are likely to end in failure or less up take in raising them.

Better imv to set up and raise QC's in the colony one is grafting from which has the better temeprament.

 

[ericbeaumont]

cells were all torn down on the top bar and a couple on the bottom bar

Bees often tear down QCs in a swarming colony if the weather changes for the worse, though I have no idea if this would affect your set-up in the same way; what was the result of the test frame?

 

[Andy]

I had a peek this afternoon. Eggs still there. Brood still there. No QCs. I spent ages looking for a virgin and sieved them though I am not sure off the effectiveness of that with a virgin.
Will they eat the eggs with a virgin in the same way as introducing a frame to a normal colony?
I'll check again tomorrow.

Given the larvae were minute, what is the earliest on the bell curve that a queen could emerge? ie normally at 16 days, but this would have been at about 12,13. I think odds are I missed a queen cell on the frames, but I have had several good looks and can't find anything.

Will the new frame get QC drawn if I still have the other QC in the hive?

Super frustrating as I was going to use all the bees from this hive to make up NUCs. If it is a queen from the original hive, I don't want her. Pure evil (from a human perspective)

 

[user 819]

I personally wouldn't use an evil/over protective colony to raise queens as it will make inspections unpleasant.
Place curlers over sealed cells or wait a few till about 12dyas if unsure of age.
Typically I graft when I can see RJ but can't or can only just distinguish an egg, then I know there are only 5.5 days approx. for the cell to be sealed.

 

[user 819]

Could a queen emerge 3 days early? I’ve put a roller cage on them and emergence for the remainder is Wednesday hopefully. I was wondering if in the future I cage them as soon as they are capped. Does this have any implications as I understand the bees often help the queen out by chewing around the cap.

Yes if you have got the dates wrong, however if one is 100% when cells are capped at 9 days then any Q will not be developed to enough to emerg 3 days early, they can be so at day 15.

 

[Andy]

I personally wouldn't use an evil/over protective colony to raise queens as it will make inspections unpleasant.
Place curlers over sealed cells or wait a few till about 12dyas if unsure of age.
Typically I graft when I can see RJ but can't or can only just distinguish an egg, then I know there are only 5.5 days approx. for the cell to be sealed.

I didn’t have a lot of choice on the colony as I’m just starting out They were meant to be requeened at the start of the season but the nominated queen disappeared from the top of a vertical split. The angriness why I ended up doing a walk away split the other day to just have the nurse bees looking after the grafts. The flyers have one cell from the grafts in another hive.

So can I place curlers on as soon as the qc are capped to avoid this happening again?

My plans are in tatters as I didn’t really want to raid any of the other hives for bees as they are just starting to build up. I’ve also recently taken frames and bees for nucs/mating hives

 

[user 819]

Personally I think you are trying to do too much in such a little time without the decent strong colonies needed.
Colonies building up need to be built up and not raided to be left weaker unless it is properly planned.

Queen rearing and splititng colonies with few strong colonies isn't going to end well.
Imho forget about Q rearing from feisty colonies , one needs a nice harmonious colony that is a joy to open when Q rearing not a battle each time.

Leave feisty colonies re- Q ing as a seperate entity and one's that need sorting out , not one's for manipulating for other procedures.

 

[Andy]

Personally I think you are trying to do too much in such a little time without the decent strong colonies needed.
Colonies building up need to be built up and not raided to be left weaker unless it is properly planned.

Queen rearing and splititng colonies with few strong colonies isn't going to end well.
Imho forget about Q rearing from feisty colonies , one needs a nice harmonious colony that is a joy to open when Q rearing not a battle each time.

Leave feisty colonies re- Q ing as a seperate entity and one's that need sorting out , not one's for manipulating for other procedures.

You are probably right but I’m also stubbornly focused on my end goal, angry colony or not In the future I have no desire to have any defensive colonies and they will get short shrift. Having 7 bees sting around my neck was not fun. If I could go back I wouldn’t have split my nice colony. I was trying to do a vertical split to replace the nasty queen once successfully mated. Killing her early would have meant I wouldn’t have had the resources for my plan if mating failed. In the nice hive I didn’t have the right kit to set up Queen rearing in. It was split into 3 colonies in May. The weather has scuppered my plans a bit as I’ve lost weeks to extremely late mating. This latest round is my last shot this year. Nothing has mated in the mini nucs for about 5 weeks and I’m not the only one up here struggling. I’ve also had to start with no drawn comb. I’ve got all the colonies on full rations to draw as much as possible so I can hit the ground running next year.

I’ve learnt so much this year, which I just wouldn’t have running two colonies. I’m up to 7 mini nucs (4 with virgins waiting to mate, 2 waiting for virgin, one finally started laying). Two 6 frame nucs (one mated (double brood), other with mating virgin) and 3 full-size colonies that had almost a full box of brood. 2 more if you count the angry hive split which both have enough to get going comfortably. Last year I started at this time with 2 hives and 2-3 frames of bees and brood in one so I am still hopeful. I could knock back some of the bigger boxes and still recover. I was aiming for 6 full hive colonies by the end of the year but if I can have a couple of extra nucs then that would be good.

I wanted to make up a bs honey box with the angry bees as 2x3 frames for mating as well. Having so many mating hives is an insurance policy for the rubbish weather up here.

Any how’s, that is my story. But what I was wondering is when should I use the Nicot roller cages. Or more specifically the earliest time? Do the bees need to be able to stay close to warm the QCs until later in the process. Do the bees need to chew down the wax around the cap near the end, or should the queen be able to get out without worker bee intervention in all circumstances?

 

[user 819]

Bees should be a joy and a peasure to work not a chore or one that is a 'on my god ' colony.

 

[Andy]

Bees should be a joy and a peasure to work not a chore or one that is a 'on my god ' colony.

I don't disagree with that. Just to be clear, the grafts are not from the nasty colony. And I can't wait for the time I don't have to deal with them again.

Any ideas on the questions please?

 

[user 819]

Nasty/ feisty bees take time to change and only if one gets a nice mating, sometimes there may be a marked change but with good genes one is needing to wait unitl all of the previous offspring have died out for a complete chnage of the guard.

 

[Chris Hancock]

It isn't worth rushing, but it is important that those nasty genes don't get spread by her drones, if you can take those drone combs out. Bees know if the eggs are related to them and will probably remove them if they are not, and will chew down queen cells if they can get to them, but if protected long enough for her pheromones to be accepted a cell might work. Don't forget that the original's brood will keep emerging and them have another 6 weeks . It does not make beekeeping such a pleasure. If they are attacking people away from the apiary, you may be safer not to prolong the agony.

 

[Andy]

So the mystery is over. I must have missed a queen cell the other week. I found a virgin wondering around, so she is no more. I didn't want her nasty genes. Seems like I was in the nick of time to save the last 6 cells.

 

[jeff33]

I did a round of grafting 2 weeks ago and had the same issue with bees drawing comb around cells. I always have a scalpel with me which I use for this reason. 12 out of 16 take and 10 have emerged.... just for some decent weather now

 

[Andy]

Brilliant, I had all the remaining 6 queens emerge.

The expected date was yesterday. I had one Tuesday ( I'd put into a colony before the rampage) 2 yesterday. 1 overnight. 1 this afternoon. I peeled back the caps of the last 2 and the queens emerged a little pale so they'd probably have come out overnight. Next time, I'll wait two days post the predicted emergence date.

Can I assume that those that take longer to emerge might be better quality as I am likely to have selected an earlier stage larvae?