Poly vs wood?

[Tom Bick]

A number of daft arguments in favour of poly hives on this thread.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The indications are your poly hive will outlast several wooden ones, and therefore its total lifetime carbon footprint is very good. Thus there is a very good environmentally way of recycling a polyhive when you have finished... give to another bee keeper to keep bees in..

Be interesting to see how well one would last in use for 300 years or so.

 

[Bob Bee]

A number of daft arguments in favour of poly hives on this thread.

I think the only stuff I really object to is that which uses a sort of 'emotional blackmail' approach, your killing your bees or negligent if you don't use Poly, I see it as a last resort for those who have run out of genuine arguments, but can be quite frightening to those new to beekeeping.

 

[oliver90owner]

we'd better do it because the Chinese and other developing countries will"

Not what I said and certainly not what I meant. What I was saying, and you appear to be blinkered to that, was that whatever we do, there is a lot of horse trading to be done to change those countries attitudes - it is making them money. Nothing at all about us not doing it.

I suspect that many new and some experienced beekeepers will be suckered by salesman into buying poly kit that will have a much shorter lifespan than 30 years.

You are quite right on that one. Many have, already.

Some will be suckered into thinking that polystyrene hives are directly comparable with food trays and drink cups, which, quite obviously, they are not. And by reports dating back over a quarter of a century.

Perhaps it would be prudent only to sell thes things to those that can be relied on for the final disposal.

Computers and car parts are regularly recycled now, so why should beehives not be treated the same way. It will take time and it is up to all of us and our descendants to progress this. Somehow I think there are still a lot out there to be persuaded to even turn off a light to reduce our use of fossil fuels.

The fact remains that there is little reason for many parts to be recycled without any trouble at all. Yes, polystyrene cups and food containers should be targetted. It is just that beehives are different, so arguing on a disposable one-use hot-food packaging is not really relevant.

 

[itma]

Would you prefer it if i stopped posting on this forum then,would that satisfy you.?

Huh? ?? ???

I might be entirely wrong on this, but I'd be very surprised if, as a respected craft producer of cedar hives, you would really want your words to be used as product endorsement for a plastic product that seems not to be, umm, the most universally well-respected.

Typed words don't often accurately convey a tone of voice - something I myself am all too aware of, and which causes me concern -- as when a well-intentioned comment is jumped upon!
And irony without signposting simply doesn't look ironic in plain text.

I had hoped that by flagging up the irony that I thought was there, I was being helpful, both to future readers and the poster.

If there was no irony intended in that post, I apologise - in astonishment!

 

[rockdoc]

Just to add to the info supplied by Bob. I'm a micro palaeontologist by profession. In essence, that means I look at a lot of silt, sand and mud. I can tell you that what I see down a microscope in present day sands and silts should scare everyone. Plastics do break down to a point. However, they are present, and remain so, at the microscopic level. Lets be clear, this stuff does get into the marine food chain. When you see how many poly boxes get dumped from both the agriculture and fisheries industry its appalling. As for the OP, I agree with the thermal versus food consumption argument, and use a combination of both mediums for winter. But I'm not sure about going over completely to poly.

 

[Bob Bee]

we'd better do it because the Chinese and other developing countries will"

Not what I said and certainly not what I meant. What I was saying, and you appear to be blinkered to that, was that whatever we do, there is a lot of horse trading to be done to change those countries attitudes - it is making them money. Nothing at all about us not doing it.

I suspect that many new and some experienced beekeepers will be suckered by salesman into buying poly kit that will have a much shorter lifespan than 30 years.

You are quite right on that one. Many have, already.

Some will be suckered into thinking that polystyrene hives are directly comparable with food trays and drink cups, which, quite obviously, they are not. And by reports dating back over a quarter of a century.

Perhaps it would be prudent only to sell thes things to those that can be relied on for the final disposal.

Computers and car parts are regularly recycled now, so why should beehives not be treated the same way. It will take time and it is up to all of us and our descendants to progress this. Somehow I think there are still a lot out there to be persuaded to even turn off a light to reduce our use of fossil fuels.

The fact remains that there is little reason for many parts to be recycled without any trouble at all. Yes, polystyrene cups and food containers should be targetted. It is just that beehives are different, so arguing on a disposable one-use hot-food packaging is not really relevant.

Oliver, your right that there are much bigger issues that do need to be addressed at a global level (sometimes I read too quickly, sorry) . But the thing we do have control over are the personal choices we make. I and many others will not buy poly intentionally and I will continue to try and discourage others, especially where the arguments are are shallow and mindless or even ill conceived nonsense.

 

[mbc]

The indications are your poly hive will outlast several wooden ones

Nonsense. Many of us are using wooden hives which predate and have far outlasted many of the first poly hives already.
Wood grows on trees, is a more robust material and is far more easily mended or recycled than polystyrene.
Whoever says polystyrene is 100% recyclable should take into account that at the present time its roughly 100% not recycled.

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Anything comparing wood vs poly is going to get people going as people have way to many views on it

 

[madasafish]

I am sure poly hives will outlast the ones I build: mine are of course recycled pallets..


I am sure that somewhere there is an ecological argument of cutting down trees ( store of CO2) vs using oil based products (store of CO2) but frankly given that poly hives are such a small item in the scheme of things, it's like measuring the number of angels on a pinhead (any fule knows it is 16.42).

 

[user 6228]

Be interesting to see how well one would last in use for 300 years or so.

yes it would... but you cant have both "it will never degrade" and it wont last,
wood rots if not cared for amd poly needs a coat of paint to protect if from the sun.

 

[user 6228]

Nonsense. Many of us are using wooden hives which predate and have far outlasted many of the first poly hives already.
Wood grows on trees, is a more robust material and is far more easily mended or recycled than polystyrene.
Whoever says polystyrene is 100% recyclable should take into account that at the present time its roughly 100% not recycled.

The same arguments can be used in reverse.
Just look at all the wooden hives that have rotted away.
Polystyrene hives are easily mendable.

 

[Hivemaker.]

yes it would... but you cant have both "it will never degrade" and it wont last,
wood rots if not cared for amd poly needs a coat of paint to protect if from the sun.

I was going by say 75 years untreated cedar, plus your comment that poly would outlast several of these,and could then be passed on,unpainted of course to make things equal.

Not that it makes a jot of difference,most will be dead before the hives wear out.

 

[itma]

On a practical beekeeping, as opposed to religious, level - a foamed plastic hive should provide benefits to the bees (and thus the beekeeper) by virtue of being better-insulated.
The principal downside, at the practical level, is the lack of standardisation (and consequently interoperability) across different 'poly' manufacturers. Whose poly Nat roof fits who-else's poly hive?
There's a danger of finding yourself locked-in to single sourcing.

Single-sourcing is fine, until something changes.
I was wondering what would happen (for example) if/when we needed to change to floors with an open (mesh) drop over absolutely the whole floor area, and a deep tray rather than a thin inspection board - to cope with Small Hive Beetle.
The National plastic floors that I've seen wouldn't be easy (if it were possible) to modify.
Whereas a suitable wooden floor could be easily sourced (even now), or made, but with a poly Nat, you'd be probably thrown back onto carpentry for some considerable time until your chosen supplier made a new mould and went into production.
Some folk already use own-design wood floors with poly boxes - but that isn't going to appeal much to the beek buying poly for convenience.


At present, there is a great diversity between different poly "Nationals". CWJ maintain the exterior dimensions, reducing the frame count. Pains and BeehiveSupp keep the standard internal dimensions, but AFAIK use different external dimensions. MB quietly even have top beespace.
For poly Nationals, the principal problem for me is that there isn't a standard, and you are closely binding yourself to a single supplier.

And that's before we get to aesthetics, environmentalism, toughness, need for strapping, etc.

 

[ultreen1]

I've made a decision (right or wrong) I'm sticking with wood, I need to keep it simple in the beginning and having 2 different materials might complicate things! I can see arguments from both sides. Option, opinion and preference is a wonderful thing!

 

[user 6228]

I think the only stuff I really object to is that which uses a sort of 'emotional blackmail' approach, your killing your bees or negligent if you don't use Poly, I see it as a last resort for those who have run out of genuine arguments, but can be quite frightening to those new to beekeeping.

blackmail? daft? its just thermodynamics... energy losses mean more work to maintain the status quo, when animals provide the work, animal lives are shortened as a direct result of the extra work.

on the Morality
Each to their own, I need justify to myself that I dont take life unnecessarily, as I have said before on this forum. Bees work themselves to death, I dont have a problem with that. People who are frightened by that should do something else IMHO. I eat meat, I kill animals to eat. But I would have difficulty being associated with a product that killed more animals than was neccessary to produce it. I would label any production process that did that as cruel.

So it comes down to what is neccessary.

my views: Ornamental asthetics are not necessary. My prejudices are not necessary. Excess honey production to satisfy my ego or promote my standing is not neccessary. Tradition for the sake of tradition is not necessary. To ingratiate my self with a Forum on the internet is not neccessary. Opening the hive on cold day not necessary.
Killing few extra bees to get roof down promptly in cool weather to keep the colony warm that i had to inspect, that can rate as necessary.
Taking the time to work out the full environmental cost, and colony energy cost vs shortening bee lives thats neccessary.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I think the only stuff I really object to is that which uses a sort of 'emotional blackmail' approach, your killing your bees or negligent if you don't use Poly ...

But the same sort of argument seems to be being used against those who have chosen to use polystyrene.

Anything comparing wood vs poly is going to get people going as people have way to many views on it

I think the ghost of the flimsy polystyrene drinking cup, coolbox or fish/vegetable box has to be laid to rest when discussing the polystyrene used for hives. They simply aren't the same quality of material, but even so, broken polystyrene can be recycled http://www.polystyrenerecycle.com/index.html, all it needs is somebody to collect it and set up the plant to do so. It can also be burned, and some councils have waste recycling facilities that turn all non-bio waste into heat.

Not everybody uses cedar hives, and some of the glues in external ply aren't very environmentally friendly, especially if/when they are burned. Many people will treat timber to either make it look pretty or to make it last longer and, in the wider scheme of things, people are tending to replace timber with plastic or hard polystyrene, because it lasts longer and is easier/needs less work to maintain. We don't really know if an unprotected block of polystyrene will outlast an untreated block of cedar - but we're told that hard polystyrene is well nigh indestructible but doesn't acquire the pretty patina of much loved, aged, wood.

I'm probably going to get a serious shouting at here, but it seems really quite difficult to fully balance the environmental 'risks' between using timber and by-products from petrochemicals. We looked at personal outlay, and 'local' impact, i.e. how it would affect us. We reasoned that if we lessen the impact here, at our home, then there's a positive knock-on effect.

Polystyrene is cheaper than cedar, and significantly lighter than plywood.
Because polystyrene weighs less than wood it, probably, uses less fuel to transport the same volume of material.
To slow down the effects of sunlight and protect it from algae attack we could paint polystyrene with leftover paint, using either exterior or interior washable vinyl.
We learned, from Fera https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=494 that we could disinfect with things we already have (washing soda and bleach - both biodegrade), instead of having to buy something new (metal blow torch and gas canisters - less to throw away, and some metals are in shorter supply than petrochemicals).
Polystyrene is strong and lasts a very long time, with minimal maintenance and doesn't get woodworm.

Then we learned that size for size, polystyrene is a better insulator than wood, and bees tend to do best in well-insulated spaces.

 

[newportbuzz]

I need a second hive! The one hive I have is wooden but I'm torn between wood or poly. Does anyone have any advice, pros or cons?

I was in the same position as you and here is what i have done.
i asked for advise and read as much as i can. with the info i got i have come to the conclusion that using poly broodboxes with wooden kit for now with the aim to swap over to fully poly with the exception of crownboards floors and roofs which will be wood.
i run national hives so i chose sweinty as their hives can be flatpacked if needed and they will work with all of my existing wood kit. i also purchased poly feeders for use as both a feeder and top insulation so all my hives are set up as follows
wood floor
poly brood box
second poly brood box
poly feeder
wood crownboard with porter escapes
wood roof

later in the season i will be using wood supers.

most of the cons that i have found are. the material is slightly more fragile than wood. ie if you kick it you will mark it and possibly depending on where your foot hits it break bits. so you have to be a bit more gentle with the poly stuff.

there is the usualy stuff about enviromental impact but there are so many arguements for and against that i just gave up on the front.

then there is the disease front and depending on who you listen to its fine or your screwed. i am of the feeling if you get afb ur screwed anyway weither wood or poly. others are of diferent opinions

then there is the lightness as a con. stuff trys to blow away. but so does some wood stuff. solution half a block on roof.

it is a bit easier to damage a poly box than a wood one while scraping with your hive tool

its a bit had to nail stuff to it ie mouse guards porches etc.

and a final con. it costs more for me to get poly stuff than wood gear.


for the pros

they build up very similarly to wooden boxes some better some worse but id say on adverage basicly the same

they are light to lift so you get a more acurate heft to check stores

they have better handles for lifting

they are better insulated which i think more closely copys the natural hollows they would be in.

they are easy to assmeble and disassemble

they will last a lot longer than similar priced offerings so i expect to start saving some cash by not having to replace stuff.


all in all i am going poly. but i do still make wooden bait boxes (40 this year)


I am the first in my assoctiation of 126 people to go poly but i am gettin asked a lot of questions about my build up and lots of folk seem interested.


sorry for such a long reply hope it helps ya out

 

[Teemore]

I am in a very similar position to Newportbuzz having started with wood and trialled a poly hive last year. The colony built up into double brood and overwintered really well needing no supplemental feeding. They rapidly built back up into double brood and have already donated a couple of frames of brood and bees to make a nuc to which I 'united' the queen and bees i overwintered in a Kieler mini hive. I have migrated a couple more colonies into poly brood boxes and am using home made floors, crown boards and insulated roofs. For the time being i'll run both wood and poly hives - components can be mixed and matched to a degree.
I gave a talk to a group of beginning beekeepers in my local association and brought along a poly brood box to use as a demonstration tool. The new beekeepers were very interested in and open to the idea of poly hives and indeed a number had already read up on them. Some established beekeepers are much more reluctant to even consider or discuss their use. I am a member of two local associations and as far as I know am the first of their members to use poly hives.

 

[oliver90owner]

I think newportbuzz summed it up fairly well.

I have kept bees for over a decade in timber hives and only my third season in poly.

There is a marked difference from the over-wintering aspect, with poly well ahead.

The biggest downside for me is having to purchase as a manufactured box - a lot of my kit has been made and repaired (as part of another hobby, really).

My future direction is similar to that of newportbuzz. Poly broods and timber for the rest (there may be a few shallows in poly).

I am not planning on junking any polyhive in any bin for at least an estimated thirty years - and I doubt I shall last that long. During that thirty years some will be disposing of far more plastic packaging in a far less controlled manner - unless things change dramatically for the better.

I, like Bob bee, avoid styrene plastics where possible, such as foodstuffs and am fairly 'green' environmentally. But where a brood box is concerned, I have no qualms in using polystyrene. Comparing one-use food containers with airfix model aeroplanes is fairly inappropriate in my view.

Timber hives have been adequate for many a year, but it just so happens that although 95% or more of my full hives are timber (or ply) I have come to the conclusion that a poly brood for over-wintering is superior. If comparing poly with ply, then poly will win by streets.