Perone Hive?

[Jazzygem]

Does anyone know anything about Perone hives?

 

[oliver90owner]

No more than is on 'goggle'. But I have not looked at the several hits. Good place to start, mind.

RAB

 

[Finman]

.
Keep fingers out of it. Terrible idea.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Does anyone know anything about Perone hives?

Google for "Making a Perone Hive The Perm Apiculture Way pdf".

On the one hand, Oscar Perone believes that bees will appreciate it if you design the hive according to golden mean principles. Mr Perone also believes that bees will be happier if the hive cavity is vaguely octagonal rather than rectangular. On the other hand, Mr Perone's ideas about keeping the brood nest undisturbed are not wholly unscientific.

Essentially, I think we can define a Perone hive as a hive with a permanently closed very large brood section at the bottom, which contains freely-built comb and a few diagonal supports (tree branches), and with optional, shallower honey supers at the top. The brood nest is never opened (or, if your region's regulations require inspections: no more than once a year). The theory is that bees will be healthier if they can decide how to build the brood nest themselves and if the brood nest is not disturbed.

In Mr Perone's own design, the brood section has a capacity of 185 litres, and the three supers each have a capacity of 33 litres... so it's a fairly large hive.

There are no rules about the hive entrances, and although Mr Perone uses a top-bar type grid for his supers, I don't think it is against the "rules" to use frames in the supers.

Samuel

 

[Jazzygem]

Google for "Making a Perone Hive The Perm Apiculture Way pdf".

On the one hand, Oscar Perone believes that bees will appreciate it if you design the hive according to golden mean principles. Mr Perone also believes that bees will be happier if the hive cavity is vaguely octagonal rather than rectangular. On the other hand, Mr Perone's ideas about keeping the brood nest undisturbed are not wholly unscientific.

Essentially, I think we can define a Perone hive as a hive with a permanently closed very large brood section at the bottom, which contains freely-built comb and a few diagonal supports (tree branches), and with optional, shallower honey supers at the top. The brood nest is never opened (or, if your region's regulations require inspections: no more than once a year). The theory is that bees will be healthier if they can decide how to build the brood nest themselves and if the brood nest is not disturbed.

In Mr Perone's own design, the brood section has a capacity of 185 litres, and the three supers each have a capacity of 33 litres... so it's a fairly large hive.

There are no rules about the hive entrances, and although Mr Perone uses a top-bar type grid for his supers, I don't think it is against the "rules" to use frames in the supers.

Samuel

Thanks very much for that information. I did see a bit on youtube and they looked interesting and was just wondering on peoples thoughts, ideas and if they had heard of them. Im all for animals rearing their own kind their way rather than human intervention. I hatch a few chickens out each yr and the mother does the hatching and rearing , much healthier than when I incubated the eggs myself.

 

[Hivemaker.]

much healthier than when I incubated the eggs myself.

I can imagine it would be, birds are well adapted for sitting on eggs for a few weeks at a time, unlike humans.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I was just wondering on peoples thoughts, ideas and if they had heard of them. I'm all for animals rearing their own kind their way rather than human intervention.

Well, if you leave honey bees to their own devices, they'll likely die. This is because your local region is now infected with pests and diseases that didn't used to occur there, and because the bees that you have are not the original type of bee that occurred in your area.

Your chickens don't catch infections from your neighbours' chickens, simply because you keep them in one place. Your bees, on the other hand, fly to everywhere in a 5 mile radius and encounter other bee colonies regularly, not to mention ingesting pesticides from plants, so even if you could start with a disease-free and pest-free colony, it won't stay that way for long.

The theoretical problems with the Perone hive include:
* You can't inspect the brood nest for brood diseases as good or as often as might be good for you. What you could do, perhaps, is to make a sizeable "door" in two sides of the hive so that you can open the door and cut out a piece of comb for inspection. This would go slightly against the Perone rules, but not entirely, since you're not pulling the combs apart.
* Your hives will swarm, guaranteed. The more healthy the hive, the more they swarm. And you can't really do artificial swarming in a Perone hive.
* You can do mite treatment, but you can't measure its success rate. This is not a big problem -- lots of people don't measure mite infestation, but simply treat for it at regular intervals.
* With modular hives, you can use frames from one colony to "help" another colony, if one is struggling, but you can't do that with Perone. You just have to take it on faith (and watch the bees' behaviour at the hive entrance) that the bees will be all right.

 

[Jazzygem]

Thanks for that. Im only a new comer to this so all advice is much appreciated. I just saw the perone hive and wondered what the thoughts were here.
The internet is full of information which is great , but sometimes too much is confusing. Still very interesting none the less, thanks again for that.

G

 

[Finman]

Thanks for that. Im only a new comer to this so all advice is much appreciated. I just saw the perone hive and wondered what the thoughts were here.


G

Frames and foundations were invented about 150 years ago.

Peron hive is just empty space. Makes no sense to return 200 years.
Impossible to nurse.

And help CDD.... Oh dear! .. That is a joke.
.

 

[user 6228]

This reminded me of something a long time ago. I still think a perone hive is cruel

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14388&highlight=perone&page=6

 

[Finman]

This reminded me of something a long time ago. I still think a perone hive is cruel

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14388&highlight=perone&page=6

Quite a fairy tale..
Hives all over Argentina.... Big country. 11 times that of UK.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Google pictures , colmena+perone

https://www.google.fi/search?q=pero...IKHWtcDQ4Q_AUIBigB#tbm=isch&q=colmena+perone+


Do something to this? Find a queen?

 

[Millet]

Would varroa not wipe them out eventually if you are not supposed to open the bottom part up, also how would the bee's hold there winter cluster temperature with that big open void above them.

 

[user 6228]

Would varroa not wipe them out eventually if you are not supposed to open the bottom part up, also how would the bee's hold there winter cluster temperature with that big open void above them.

The premise is if you have enough bees then they will endure...unfortunately there is some truth in it. Their capacity to withstand thermal stresses is ameliorated (i.e MCR value) at the greater risk of infection by pathogens etc... (greater pathogen collecting capacity etc..)
i.e. you are stressing a greater number of bees to compensate for the obvious design flaws in the hive.

which is why i think it is cruel

 

[ugcheleuce]

Would varroa not wipe them out eventually if you are not supposed to open the bottom part up...

The theory is that the bees are better capable of taking care of themselves if they are not disturbed (i.e. if the micro climate inside the box is not disturbed). There will always be diseases and pests in all bee colonies, but it only becomes a problem if the bees become overwhelmed by it.

...also how would the bee's hold there winter cluster temperature with that big open void above them?

The bees' ability to hold the winter cluster temperature is independent of whether there is space above, below or around the cluster. The cluster is where the warmth is, and it doesn't matter how much space is above the cluster.

One might think that since heat rises, there must be a zone of warm air above the cluster, but there isn't really. In winter, the temperature of the area more than 2 inches away from the cluster (including the area above the cluster) is the same as the outside temperature.

 

[Millet]

The theory is that the bees are better capable of taking care of themselves if they are not disturbed (i.e. if the micro climate inside the box is not disturbed). There will always be diseases and pests in all bee colonies, but it only becomes a problem if the bees become overwhelmed by it.



The bees' ability to hold the winter cluster temperature is independent of whether there is space above, below or around the cluster. The cluster is where the warmth is, and it doesn't matter how much space is above the cluster.

One might think that since heat rises, there must be a zone of warm air above the cluster, but there isn't really. In winter, the temperature of the area more than 2 inches away from the cluster (including the area above the cluster) is the same as the outside temperature.

Thank you for that but colonies of bees are getting wiped out all over the world by Varroa, so i suspect them perone hives will succumb to varroa infestation sooner or later if they can not be opened up and treated.

 

[Jazzygem]

Thanks to everyone for the advice and information. keep t coming.

Jazzygem

 

[Finman]

The theory is that the bees are better capable of taking care of themselves if they are not disturbed (i.e. if the micro climate inside the box is not disturbed). There will always be diseases and pests in all bee colonies, but it only becomes a problem if the bees become overwhelmed by it.



The bees' ability to hold the winter cluster temperature is independent of whether there is space above, below or around the cluster. The cluster is where the warmth is, and it doesn't matter how much space is above the cluster.

One might think that since heat rises, there must be a zone of warm air above the cluster, but there isn't really. In winter, the temperature of the area more than 2 inches away from the cluster (including the area above the cluster) is the same as the outside temperature.

You really deliver wrong information. You have not real winters in Holland. At least you have cold weathers and wind there.
But from where you have got those ideas?
.

Get this kind of apparatus, and measure how heat rises up. You may measure the temp from inner cover under insulation.

I can measure, how the heat leaks through the polyhive wall compared to empty poly hive.

.

 

[Finman]

The theory is that the bees are better capable of taking care of themselves if they are not disturbed (i.e. if the micro climate inside the box is not disturbed).

.

I have not met that theory.

Actually colonies in nature die first because no one help them when something is wrong.

Dead rate in Australian wild bee colonies is 24% / year.
.
If beehives in nature do not die, globe will be filled soon with bee colonies.

Put into exel 100 colonies. Each swarms 2 times in a year.
after 10 years you have 6 million colonies.

In Argentina they write that varroa is the vosrt enemy of beekeeping.
Sometimes it has been said that it is swarming. Perhaps before varroa.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I have not met that theory.

It is known as ...."do nothing beekeeping".