PDQ 4: Have I missed the chance for supercedure?

[Ringlander]

Question 4: A week ago I found a lovely big not quite capped supercedure cell in the middle of a brood frame from a hive with a 3 year old queen. There were no other cells anywhere in the hive. The queen is still fairly productive and it's a nice colony but it must be coming to a point where she hads got to go before too long. Sadly the cell was damaged when I lifted the frame and so I squashed it hoping for another one in a weeks time. This week there was another charged cell in the same location, but this time there were also 4 or 5 other cells around the edges of the frames. Have I mised the chance of getting a supercedure? Once there are swarm cells is the cell in a supercedure position also likely to lead to a swarm if it is left in place and the others are destroyed?

 

[Worker bee]

Question 4: A week ago I found a lovely big not quite capped supercedure cell in the middle of a brood frame from a hive with a 3 year old queen. There were no other cells anywhere in the hive. The queen is still fairly productive and it's a nice colony but it must be coming to a point where she hads got to go before too long. Sadly the cell was damaged when I lifted the frame and so I squashed it hoping for another one in a weeks time. This week there was another charged cell in the same location, but this time there were also 4 or 5 other cells around the edges of the frames. Have I mised the chance of getting a supercedure? Once there are swarm cells is the cell in a supercedure position also likely to lead to a swarm if it is left in place and the others are destroyed?

Don't worry if they built cells and they have royal jelly and are occupied they are most likely good, however I don't want to alarm you but they could be no good, post a few pics. Do you have capped and uncapped worker brood? Even if they are bad cells it's likely you can save the hive with a virgin or mated queen or a batch of fresh eggs

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Once there are swarm cells is the cell in a supercedure position also likely to lead to a swarm

what is a 'supersedure position'?
it looks like what you had was the beginnings of swarm preparations in the first inspection. Now confirmed in the second.

 

[Worker bee]

Is the old queen still in the hive? Have you noticed a decrease in expansion?
Do you see fresh eggs standing up? Do you see one egg in a cell or two or three? All can be indicators

 

[Worker bee]

I know we are firing multiple questions but it's how you assess a hive and its state. Most likely you have a hive that swarmed and has a virgin queen you mistook for supersedure.

 

[Ringlander]

Sorry, I didn't make the question clear. The 3 year old marked queen is still present, and laying, with a egg to open larvae/capped brood ratio of about 30%, so the amount of brood is currently expanding. About 50% of the space in the 14x12 brood box is BIAS. I thought that just one queen cell in the whole brood box, located in the centre of a brood frame was likely to indicate a supercedure was imminent whereas multiple cells are more likely to indicate a swarm is coming. I was trying to understand if the presence of swarm eliminates the chance of a natural supercedure occuring, ie: if I squash all the cells around the edges of the frames and leave just the cell in the centre will the hive still swarm. I suspect the answer is yes but was interested in your experience.

 

[pargyle]

Beekeeping myths ... sometimes one queen cell is supercedure - sometimes they swarm. Multiple queen cells usually mean they will swarm and occasionally they just supercede. Swarm cells are not always around the edges or on the bottom of frames - sometimes they are in the middle - supercedure cells are not always in the middle of the frame.

Rule No. 1 - if you see a charged queen cell - assume they are going to swarm and you won't go far wrong.

 

[BugsInABox]

Sorry, I didn't make the question clear. The 3 year old marked queen is still present, and laying, with a egg to open larvae/capped brood ratio of about 30%, so the amount of brood is currently expanding. About 50% of the space in the 14x12 brood box is BIAS. I thought that just one queen cell in the whole brood box, located in the centre of a brood frame was likely to indicate a supercedure was imminent whereas multiple cells are more likely to indicate a swarm is coming. I was trying to understand if the presence of swarm eliminates the chance of a natural supercedure occuring, ie: if I squash all the cells around the edges of the frames and leave just the cell in the centre will the hive still swarm. I suspect the answer is yes but was interested in your experience.

If the new cells are swarm cells and it sounds like they might be I don’t think you can switch off the swarming process by knocking them back. Key Q then is are they swarm cells?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

supercedure cells are not always in the middle of the frame.

I'd change that to 'not often'

 

[pargyle]

I'd change that to 'not often'

Yes I agree ... mythbusting ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you read about supersedure in most books, what they actually say (not what most people have now assumed or interpreted) is that more often or not supersedure cells are found around the periphery of the brood nest but it seems that many beekeepers struggle to think in three dimensions so can't seem to get that a single QC slap bang in the middle of the end frame in a hive is exactly the same as a single QC halfway up and right next to the side bar of frame 6, or a single QC slap bang in the middle of the bottom bar/top bar of any frame (I won't mention 'warm way'/'cold way' or the beekeeping by numnbers mob might have a total meltdown!! )

 

[elainemary]

Beekeeping myths ... sometimes one queen cell is supercedure - sometimes they swarm. Multiple queen cells usually mean they will swarm and occasionally they just supercede. Swarm cells are not always around the edges or on the bottom of frames - sometimes they are in the middle - supercedure cells are not always in the middle of the frame.

Rule No. 1 - if you see a charged queen cell - assume they are going to swarm and you won't go far wrong.

Question relating to supersedure.
I have a hive that has recently superseded its queen. Original queen was seen, when the colony made supersedure cell (her laying was hit and miss). Next inspection, the virgin had emerged (I saw her), didn't see original queen (& she was clipped). No eggs or larvae this inspection, just a patch of sealed brood left and polished cells, so colony was expecting the virgin to mate or had just mated. However, I found 3 charged cells too. Been racking my brains about this one. I'm convinced they were not in swarming mode. Could the original queen have been killed upon the virgin emerging, so the colony made a few emergency cells with the last few remaining eggs from the former queen? Have you observed this? Or anyone else observed this before?
Thanks

 

[gmonag]

... it seems that many beekeepers struggle to think in three dimensions so can't seem to get that a single QC slap bang in the middle of the end frame in a hive is exactly the same as a single QC halfway up and right next to the side bar of frame 6, or a single QC slap bang in the middle of the bottom bar/top bar of any frame ...

To describe a broodnest I use the analogy of a boiled egg that has been sliced by one of those multiple wire cutters.

 

[pargyle]

Question relating to supersedure.
I have a hive that has recently superseded its queen. Original queen was seen, when the colony made supersedure cell (her laying was hit and miss). Next inspection, the virgin had emerged (I saw her), didn't see original queen (& she was clipped). No eggs or larvae this inspection, just a patch of sealed brood left and polished cells, so colony was expecting the virgin to mate or had just mated. However, I found 3 charged cells too. Been racking my brains about this one. I'm convinced they were not in swarming mode. Could the original queen have been killed upon the virgin emerging, so the colony made a few emergency cells with the last few remaining eggs from the former queen? Have you observed this? Or anyone else observed this before?
Thanks

Interesting situation - just goes to show that bees do not follow any hard and fast rules ...

There's multiple possibilities for what you see here and I would not worry about what has gone before because what is now important is what do you do about the situation ?

Speculating ... is it possible that you missed a swarm and what you saw was them running down the old queen in readiness for swarming ?

I would be inclined to take the frame(s) with the queen cells out and put them with some bees and stores in a nuc and then watch to see what happens in the main colony ... perhaps just pick the best one and knock the others down ?

You will either see eggs and larvae or you won't ... they can't build queen cells without the means to build them but if there is a viable queen in there you will know in a week or three. If there's no queen or one that is not viable at least you have the means to re-queen and combine from the nuc.

Leaving things as they are with queen cells in the colony is rather inviting disaster as they could swam ...

That's my best shot - I would think you will get some alternative ideas/suggestions.

 

[user 819]

If a new VQ then they are hedging their bets esp as viable eggs or larvae were available, until said queen is mated and laying I wouldn't knock them back. Now it is playing on your mind make up a nuc and use them as insurance, if you were non the wiser then this scenario will go unnoticed and will be dealt with by the colony.
I for one, once I know a VQ has emerged leave them to it as a Q can be lost by opening during the time she is out mating, it may be 3 or 4 weeks before I look inside again.

 

[user 819]

Was the under side of the floor checked for a cluster with said old Q ?

 

[elainemary]

Was the under side of the floor checked for a cluster with said old Q ?

Yes no sign of a swarm. The old queen had been laying in fits and starts, since the start of the season. When I say old, she mated later on last season, started absolutely fine and ended the season well in a double Nuc, so not that old really.
Partly why it points to poor mating and supersedure to me. I’ll take your advice & leave them to it. Thankyou!

 

[elainemary]

Interesting situation - just goes to show that bees do not follow any hard and fast rules ...

There's multiple possibilities for what you see here and I would not worry about what has gone before because what is now important is what do you do about the situation ?

Speculating ... is it possible that you missed a swarm and what you saw was them running down the old queen in readiness for swarming ?

I would be inclined to take the frame(s) with the queen cells out and put them with some bees and stores in a nuc and then watch to see what happens in the main colony ... perhaps just pick the best one and knock the others down ?

You will either see eggs and larvae or you won't ... they can't build queen cells without the means to build them but if there is a viable queen in there you will know in a week or three. If there's no queen or one that is not viable at least you have the means to re-queen and combine from the nuc.

Leaving things as they are with queen cells in the colony is rather inviting disaster as they could swam ...

That's my best shot - I would think you will get some alternative ideas/suggestions.

Thanks for the advice, I did take the couple of cells down after I saw the virgin, mainly because I don’t want to make increase from this hive - her sister is a ‘corker’ that I want to breed from, so I considered that if this new queen doesn’t work out, I can easily replace her later. Good advice though! Thankyou