Open brood next to the grafts.

[Plenty of honey]

So i wanted to see if anybody else either does this, or has heard of this.
My college who is big in the French queen rearing group ANERCEA, says i should be putting a frame of open brood next to the inserted larvae graft.
He says it brings the nurse bees of the exact age to very close proximity of the grafted larvae in their cups. So their more likely to be fed more often and better quality feed!
I argued that my cell builders are so overflowing with young nurse bees that it wouldn't make any difference, or would it??
So on the last graft I've puit in a frame of open brood. also it was loaded with pollen, as i usually do put that in adjacent to grafts.
He believes its better to have 30 excellent cells rather than 40 mediocre ones, well i cant argue with his sentiment. But anyone tried this??

 

[mbc]

I used to do this(putting open brood next to grafts) using a cloak board, but I've now started completely separating the open brood from the grafts and sealed brood and shaking the young bees off the open brood into the box with the grafts. It's a bit more faff but doesn't give the nurse bees a choice but to feed your chosen larvae on cell bars.

 

[Plenty of honey]

I used to do this(putting open brood next to grafts) using a cloak board, but I've now started completely separating the open brood from the grafts and sealed brood and shaking the young bees off the open brood into the box with the grafts. It's a bit more faff but doesn't give the nurse bees a choice but to feed your chosen larvae on cell bars.

thanks MBC, did you see any noticeable difference
in size and quality of the cells by doing this? It is a little more extra work.

 

[Goran]

I would not do so. I use Cloake board as Susan Cobey wrote in her article. About number of qcells if you want quality do 20 qcells per breeder. I talked with some qbreeders and beeks, also in some books.. Also for my needs I feed breeders with my own honey ( especially when qcells are still open) - influenced by book of Jay Smith and in further talks with some beeks over here.
For the queenless breeders I translated a part of one beekeeping book of one croatian author on other beek forum. If You want I can "copy-paste" here..

 

[mbc]

thanks MBC, did you see any noticeable difference
in size and quality of the cells by doing this? It is a little more extra work.

To my mind I get better cells without the open brood next to the grafts, but then the bees which would have been on that open brood, or attracted to it, have been shaken into the box with grafts anyway.

 

[Plenty of honey]

I would not do so. I use Cloake board as Susan Cobey wrote in her article. About number of qcells if you want quality do 20 qcells per breeder. I talked with some qbreeders and beeks, also in some books.. Also for my needs I feed breeders with my own honey ( especially when qcells are still open) - influenced by book of Jay Smith and in further talks with some beeks over here.
For the queenless breeders I translated a part of one beekeeping book of one croatian author on other beek forum. If You want I can "copy-paste" here..

Hi Goran. Ok thanks for the advice. would be interested in the text please.
Which Jason Smith is that? from America?

 

[Plenty of honey]

To my mind I get better cells without the open brood next to the grafts, but then the bees which would have been on that open brood, or attracted to it, have been shaken into the box with grafts anyway.

Well interestingly enough, I was just about to reply and say. ok yes, i see. Shaking bees from another colony, in that case you have bees that have recently have been feeding young larvae.
I harvest my brood 9 days before and put it above an excluder, above an already strong colony, so I was going to say, ok but i dont shake bees in. But i do!!
obviously when i prepare my hopelessly queeenless set up, i then shake a load of bees out of the bottom of my colony. leaving just enough to cover brood.(before i turn it around to face the other way)
So i already do that.
To be honest i reckon theres probably just no point.
As i have tons of nurse bees and tons of bees from the core of the hive.
Whether or not actually having open brood next to the cells would in fact make any difference (to entice them to the queen cells more) if the type of bees are already there in abundance, who knows??

 

[B+.]

I argued that my cell builders are so overflowing with young nurse bees that it wouldn't make any difference, or would it??

Its possible that they would start queen cells on the frame of larvae too

 

[Goran]

“ Queenless breeder colony ( Peradin)

Eight days before adding queencells with larvae to nurse, lift up above queen excluder in (honey) super several frames of capped brood, of either Langstroth Root or Alberti Znidersic hive. Why? During that time all the larvae which will emerge from the eggs, which may be on the edges ( of comb) or larvae which were in the moment of lifting the frames above QE, will become too old for queencells to be built above them.

Day before adding queencells with larvae, queen is removed from a colony. Brood box with queen is placed aside, on its place, on separate bottom board , is placed ( honey)super in which are frames with capped brood.

Super is organized in following order: In the middle are placed 2 frames with open brood, together with bees from separated brod box; at same time have to be careful not to transfer queen into also. Aside of these frames is by one frame of pollen, after them frames with sealed brood, which have to be inspected to be certain that there are no started queencells.

If there are queencells, we tore them down. At the end there come frames with more honey. With gatherers we get very strong queenless colony with ideal structure and with enoughly secured warmth, says Lovro Peradin.

Two hours before placing frames ( one or two) with grafted larvae, two frames with youngest brood are taken out and without bees. We brush these bees back. In made empty space will form clusters of nurse bees. When the grafted larvae are added to nurse, they pour all the royal jelly in the queencells. During adding of frame(s) is heard specific buz of bees which eagerly await to unload its glands. Full-fed and “ helpless” will accept highest number of added queencells.

There should be mentioned that young bees, in the age of 5-15 days, don’t secret jelly if they are not occupied with larvae feeding. They take amount of pollen and honey just as they need for themselves. Due to that for acceptance and feeding of ( queen)larvae must be obtained bees which were on the youngest brood, cause their glands are in full function. To get higher number of such bees, it is possible to brush bees of frame or two with youngest brood from another colony. Following that there were two frames with youngest brood, there can be added two frames with grafted larvae. If is added only one frame with grafted larvae, then, after sorting frames, is added as tenth frame empty one ( with built comb), which serve for storing eventual feed. To one breeder colony, according to various authors, can be given for growing from 20 to 80 grafted larvae. Following that the priority should be quality of grown queens, it will be higher if number of given larvae for growing is smaller ( inversely). Reasonable and acceptable number of given grafted larvae would be 20 to 25, 30 atmost. Of that number, part won’t be accepted, while accepted ones will be well and abundantly fed with royal jelly. “

Taken from the book:

Beekeeping with Langstroth Root and Alberti Znidersic hive

From beekeeping practice

Author: Stjepan Majsec

Hope, you'll find something you can use from it. I use cloake board, not this method.
I hope I translated this properly, so you can understand it correct. If something isn't clear, ask.
Regards,
Goran.

 

[Goran]

Forgot: Better Queens by Jay Smith, on the site of M. Bush

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm

 

[Quis Custodiet]

“ Queenless breeder colony ( Peradin)


................... can understand it correct. If something isn't clear, ask.
Regards,
Goran.

Thanks Goran.
We use the Cloake board and "Bens dummies" here quite a lot nowadays. Twenty grafts at a time seems to be the optimum number.
Forgot to mention - when feeding honey, we try to use at least some unsealed honey.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Its possible that they would start queen cells on the frame of larvae too

That's what I want to avoid. All the efforts of the nurse bees go to my grafts.

 

[Goran]

Thanks Goran.
We use the Cloake board and "Bens dummies" here quite a lot nowadays. Twenty grafts at a time seems to be the optimum number.
Forgot to mention - when feeding honey, we try to use at least some unsealed honey.

I just dilute honey/water 1:1 and feed. Usually at the same time pattie/fondant always present and plenty of available pollen ( pollen/fermented pollen in combs)

 

[Plenty of honey]

“ Queenless breeder colony ( Peradin)

Eight days before adding queencells with larvae to nurse, lift up above queen excluder in (honey) super several frames of capped brood, of either Langstroth Root or Alberti Znidersic hive. Why? During that time all the larvae which will emerge from the eggs, which may be on the edges ( of comb) or larvae which were in the moment of lifting the frames above QE, will become too old for queencells to be built above them.

Day before adding queencells with larvae, queen is removed from a colony. Brood box with queen is placed aside, on its place, on separate bottom board , is placed ( honey)super in which are frames with capped brood.

Super is organized in following order: In the middle are placed 2 frames with open brood, together with bees from separated brod box; at same time have to be careful not to transfer queen into also. Aside of these frames is by one frame of pollen, after them frames with sealed brood, which have to be inspected to be certain that there are no started queencells.

If there are queencells, we tore them down. At the end there come frames with more honey. With gatherers we get very strong queenless colony with ideal structure and with enoughly secured warmth, says Lovro Peradin.

Two hours before placing frames ( one or two) with grafted larvae, two frames with youngest brood are taken out and without bees. We brush these bees back. In made empty space will form clusters of nurse bees. When the grafted larvae are added to nurse, they pour all the royal jelly in the queencells. During adding of frame(s) is heard specific buz of bees which eagerly await to unload its glands. Full-fed and “ helpless” will accept highest number of added queencells.

There should be mentioned that young bees, in the age of 5-15 days, don’t secret jelly if they are not occupied with larvae feeding. They take amount of pollen and honey just as they need for themselves. Due to that for acceptance and feeding of ( queen)larvae must be obtained bees which were on the youngest brood, cause their glands are in full function. To get higher number of such bees, it is possible to brush bees of frame or two with youngest brood from another colony. Following that there were two frames with youngest brood, there can be added two frames with grafted larvae. If is added only one frame with grafted larvae, then, after sorting frames, is added as tenth frame empty one ( with built comb), which serve for storing eventual feed. To one breeder colony, according to various authors, can be given for growing from 20 to 80 grafted larvae. Following that the priority should be quality of grown queens, it will be higher if number of given larvae for growing is smaller ( inversely). Reasonable and acceptable number of given grafted larvae would be 20 to 25, 30 atmost. Of that number, part won’t be accepted, while accepted ones will be well and abundantly fed with royal jelly. “

Taken from the book:

Beekeeping with Langstroth Root and Alberti Znidersic hive

From beekeeping practice

Author: Stjepan Majsec

Hope, you'll find something you can use from it. I use cloake board, not this method.
I hope I translated this properly, so you can understand it correct. If something isn't clear, ask.
Regards,
Goran.

thank you very much Goran for finding the time to translate this. I will have a better look at it over the next week. just extracting and making nucs at the moment. I am exhausted!!
By the way, I've just had a look this evening and the frame with open brood on it, thats right next to the graft, 6 extra queen cells. not what i wanted.
Just like Mike says, "what he wants to avoid"!! All his nurse bees put their energies in to the grafted cells. This is what i did all last year so won't be bothering again.
well at least I've tried it.
Thanks for your input.