OA and organic farming

[rje66]

Hi, I hope to move my hives to an organic farm and owner was wondering about OA , anybody have info. Owners are checking with their local organic group jst thought id check here also. hives are in dublin.
Ta

 

[Finman]

.
OA is allowed in organic honey production.

OA is organic acid, if it helps. A carrot and lettuce has 100 times more OA than teaspoon of honey.

 

[Thymallus]

High ones are brassica family also parsley is full of the Oxalic acid. Okra is particularly bad. As are the leafs of Rhubarb plants.
If they are worried about you using it....tell 'em not to grow those ones

I think you should be okay......

 

[Finman]

.
There was First Organic Honey congress in Europe 2010 and it was said there that organic acids and thymol are used in varroa treatment.

 

[pargyle]

There are strict regulations within Europe for what can be termed 'Organic' food products. Certification is controlled by registered certification bodies and there is a list of those in the UK here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...on-list-of-uk-approved-organic-control-bodies

I don't know what the situation in Ireland is but there will be equivalent certifying bodies and similar, if not identical, guidelines.

In the UK the Soil Association have standards for what they will permit to be termed as Organic Honey ... if you are not going to be marketing your honey as 'Organic Honey' I can't see a problem with the varroa treatments you suggest may be used, but over here you would need to clear these with the Certifying Body as there is not much guidance on treatments within the standards document.

Having said that .. it would be very difficult to find an Apiary site within the UK that is acceptable to the Soil Association viz:

http://www.soilassociation.org/freq...d/2408/is-there-such-a-thing-as-organic-honey

Probably why there is very little UK Organic Honey offered for sale ... and I have reservations that any that is has actually undergone a legitimate certification.

How the CB would view your bees being treated with OA etc. on a certified organic farm I have no idea ... the farmer will, obviously, be wary that his certification could be affected by any introduction of an unauthorised treatment process - even if it was on your bees, they are still on an organic farm. The farmers Certifying Body should be able to advise.

I looked at Organic honey as a niche marketing opportunity some time ago and rapidly realised I was peeing in the wind in the UK !

 

[For want of a better word]

I looked at Organic honey as a niche marketing opportunity some time ago and rapidly realised I was peeing in the wind in the UK

I came to same conclusion about 10 years ago when beekeeping in Devon.
Not even exactly sure where OA treatments sit on the Animal Medications approved list


Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Not even exactly sure where OA treatments sit on the Animal Medications approved list


Yeghes da

As you know, in UK 10 years ago AO users went into jail directly, untill jails were full. Then OA was proved by police.

 

[pargyle]

As you know, in UK 10 years ago AO users went into jail directly, untill jails were full. Then OA was proved by police.

Yes ... but the OP was about ORGANIC farming and there may be a difference between what is permitted as legitimate BEEKEEPING practice and what is permitted under the regulations covering the labelling and production of organic products.

Very small variations on Organic farms can lead to the farmer losing their Organic status and whilst OA is accepted as something that exists in nature it may be that it is not on the list of acceptable 'additives' permitted by the Organic Certification Bodies. I don't know ... but perhaps when the OP has heard from the farmer involved we can all be a bit wiser ?

 

[Finman]

. I don't know ... but perhaps ?

Read from organic honey producers' writings. They have thymol, formic acid, lactic acid, oxalic acid. They must have something or they loose their hives. All are in internet.

And like natural honey producers, they cannot keep bees in plastic hive, but they can sell honey in plastic bottles.

 

[pargyle]

Read from organic honey producers' writings. They have thymol, formic acid, lactic acid, oxalic acid. They must have something or they loose their hives. All are in internet.

And like natural honey producers, they cannot keep bees in plastic hive, but they can sell honey in plastic bottles.

Well ... I have scoured the internet for somewhere that tells me that OA etc. are authorised 'additives' to beehives when the honey is to be sold as ORGANIC in Europe .. and I can't find anything.

Trading standards in the UK state this about honey that purports to be organic.

"Types of product that can be described as 'organic'

Unprocessed products of agricultural origin - such as meat, fruit and vegetables - that have been produced in accordance with the criteria for 'organic' products.

Processed products with ingredients sourced by hunting or fishing, where at least 95% of the additional ingredients by raw weight are organic, and only processing aids and other additional ingredients from a restricted list have been used.

Organic ingredients may be still be described as such if they have been used in a product that has not been made of 100% organic products. This does not mean the finished product can be described as organic. "

Source: http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/cgi-bin/glos/bus1item.cgi?file=*badv086-1001.txt

It's all immaterial as far as the UK is concerned because, as I said previously, I don't think there is anywhere that can claim to be sufficiently Organic to be able to produce true British ORGANIC honey ... but perhaps someone knows better ?

There's lots on the web about Australian honeys, which is of interest as they lay out their requirements for organic honey production - but Australia don't have varroa.

 

[alanf]

Logically, it really doesn't make much difference if your bees are on the organic farm side of the fence or the other side. The bees will be foraging in the same places, spreading any treatment on what they contact whether that treatment is on the organic list or not. That's partly recognised in the rules that say your honey can't be organic if the bees can forage on non organically treated gardens.

But the organic farmer does have to abide by the set of rules to keep the certificate. Even though those rules are arbitrary or dogmatic in places. It's always a goid idea to stay friendly with your hosts if you want to keep bees on their land. And organic farms are great in not glyphosating anything that's not a crop out of the margins. The only opinion that actually counts is held by the certificate authority, but one of the principles is only treating where needed. My guess is that oxalic is fine, but you may need to be prepared to sample mites before treatment rather than applying prophylactically.

 

[Finman]

Well ... I have scoured the internet for somewhere that tells me that OA etc. are authorised 'additives' to beehives when the honey is to be sold as ORGANIC in Europe .. and I can't find anything.
.

Look better. You find them. No idea to debate for nothing. if motorways do not harm honey production or bees in UK, why should authorities regulations

http://orgprints.org/24079/1/24079_tamascsaki_owc_track_2014_varroa_MM.pdf


http://omki.org/organic-protection-methods-varroa-mite/

Tools and products tested in the research (with name and website of sponsors):•Screen bottom board – Tabi Kaptár Kft. (http://www.kaptaruzem.hu/)
•Oxalic acid sublimating device – Mohai 2007 Bt. (http://www.mohai2007.hu/)
•BeeVital HiveClean – Alpha-Vet Állatgyógyászati Kft. (http://www.ameheszet.hu/)
•Dany’s BienenWohl – Euro-Vet Kft. (http://www.euro-vet.hu/)
•Apistonic formic acid vaporizer – Euro-Vet Kft. (http://www.euro-vet.hu/)
•Nassenheider formic acid vaporizer – Tolnagro Kft. (http://www.tolnagro.hu/mehesz-minisite/)
•Formic acid vaporizer – Tam-Méz Kft. (http://www.meheszbolt-tamasi.hu/)
•Api Ox – Erista Kft (http://www.erista.hu/)
•Api Bioxal – Erista Kft (http://www.erista.hu/)



2012 , USA
Formic Acid Approved for use in Organic Honey Production

Oxalic acid was allowed in NORMAL honey production in March 2015.

Germany Publication about varroa control in organic beekeeping in German (FiBL 2009: Varroakontrolle in der Bioimkerei) can be downloaded here:

https://www.fibl.org/de/shop/artikel/c/andere-tiere/p/1523-varroakontrolle.html

 

[rje66]

thanks for all replies, just to clarify, hives may be moved onto an organic farm but im not prodcing organic honey, I was just concerned for their organic status, when i hear back from them i will keep you posted. cheers

 

[BeeJayBee]

Not even exactly sure where OA treatments sit on the Animal Medications approved list

It's on Beebase http://www.nationalbeeunit.com/index.cfm?pageid=353 + the stuff about keeping vet med records

Authorised products

A list of authorised medicines for honey bees can be found on the 'Product Information Database' on the VMD website. To find products relating to bees only, use the product search facility and select 'bees' from the species drop down box.

Currently, there are no UK registered oxalic acid treatments for honey bees. However, beekeepers are able to apply for EU approved medicines which are available in EU Member States through a Special Import Certificate (SIC). There are a two registered oxalic acid medicines available to beekeepers and a list of products available under this scheme can be found here.

Api-Bioxal is a registered oxalic acid treatment in Italy and Ecoxal is a registered oxalic acid treatment in Spain. These are both available under the scheme and you can either ask your local vet whether they take part in the scheme or you can buy Api - Bioxal directly from Bee Vet.

To view a list of veterinary surgeons with a knowledge in apiculture, click here.​

​

thanks for all replies, just to clarify, hives may be moved onto an organic farm but I'm not producing organic honey,

If it helps, I know a couple of beekeepers who keep their bees on organic farms. There is no issue with routine varroa treatment and, as far as I know, one of them uses more than just OA for dealing with varroa.

 

[Finman]

.
That oxalic acid story has been told in this forum the whole time 10 years. The British beekeepers love it!

It is same in all EU countries. It is not allowed as official "medicine". In Finland that "approved" story is so bad joke that no one want to listen it and and fewer want to tell it. But all recommend it.

It is ridiculous to talk about issue when EU however recommends to use OA against varroa. And so do British beekeeping advisors. Even Hivemaker, but in fumigation form.

 

[For want of a better word]

Even Hivemaker, but in fumigation form


Ethereal surely... he haunts me !

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Use of organic acids in the United Kingdom. Ochtober 2014

By law, beekeepers may only use an organic acid which has been registered and approved by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD).

The only registered and approved product that contains an organic acid in the UK is Mite Away Quick Strip pads (MAQS) which contains formic acid. As the substance has no withdrawal period, it can be used during a honey flow.

What about authorised medicines in other EU Member States?
Authorised medicines which contain organic acids are available from other EU Member States under the Cascade scheme. Products which are available under such schemes are Api- Bioxal and Ecoxal, both authorised medicines in individual EU Member states and both contain oxalic acid. To obtain a product from the EU, a beekeeper would have to apply through their local veterinary surgeon who would then issue them the amount needed.

Can generic organic acids be used to treat against Varroa?

The use of generic organic acids or a treatment made up by a veterinary surgeon would only be permitted if in the vet’s clinical judgement it was justifiable, after having worked through the tiers of the Cascade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fn36l_z3WY

.

 

[Finman]

.
Trickling seems to be allowed in UK

Animal and Plant Health Agency

Oxalic acid

At time of writing there is not a commercially prepared treatment
containing oxalic acid approved for use in the UK. Oxalic acid is
an ‘Annex II’ substance which can be prescribed when
approved products are not effective or suitable and is applied by
trickling, spraying or sublimation. It removes phoretic mites for
up to about 48 hours, which means that it is very effective if no
or little brood is present but ineffective in the presence of
significant quantities of brood.

It is safest and most practical to obtain a proprietary, pre-mixed
and ready to use solution of oxalic acid from a bee supply
company. ‘OXUVAR®’ is available, which is approved for use in
at least one EU Country.

(Check the VMD website to check its
current status in the UK http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/
public/bee.aspx) It is used in late November, December or
January when there is little or no brood. The crown board is
removed and 5 milliliters of the solution is dribbled on to each
seam of bees in the cluster using a calibrated syringe or drench
gun. It is only used once in the winter and is best carried out
with the outside temperature greater than 3°C. This treatment
cleanses the colony of the majority of the remaining Varroa
mites so that it will probably require no further controls until the
following August.

Conclusion

Oxaclic acid is allowed to use if there are no other choices. And other choices are not in temperatures near zero, and when it is brood brake in in winter.

As you may understand, you MUST buy a commerial product and you cannot do liquid youself. But it is said, that commercial is safety and practinal. It is not said that it is outlaw.