Newbee kneejerk reaction

[alynewbee]

Hi All,

Oh dear, just when I thought things were under control.

I've just got one hive, and inpections have been weekly and all fine so far. But I have a very elusive queen. She was new last year and I've only ever seen her once and it was a pretty chilly day so I didn't want to take her out to mark her (bad decision!) We've had a lovely week of weather this week. I inspected 7 days ago and saw no queen cells, just a few play cups, nothing in them so I left them alone. Today though, I had two sealed queen cells! I obviously missed them last week. Try as I might, I could not find the queen. I went through the box three times and could not find her. Bees were getting pretty cheesed off by then. There were absolutely thousands and thousands of bees - seemed like not even the slightest reduction in numbers, and there's someone home all the time to observe so I think that (hope that) they have not swarmed.

So this is what I did (gulp...) I went through the brood box, and frame by frame shook off all the bees into the bottom of the box. Then I inspected each frame for queen cells and removed them along with any unsealed ones I found (two sealed and quite a few unsealed). Bees pretty fuming by this stage. I've now put on another super, shut up shop and bees are going back in.

So this is what I'm thinking. a) my bees have swarmed and I've just removed any possibility of them bringing on a new queen (oh no!) or b) I might just have got lucky and the queen is still in there (there were definitely eggs and BIAS) when I looked today) - in which case I need to leave them alone until next week and go in prepared for doing an AS without finding the queen. or c) some other horror that I have not forseen.

Does anyone have any words of wisdom? I'd really appreciate the voice of experience on this.

Many thanks

Aly

 

[Jim Lavie]

If you have eggs then they can make more queen cells if needed, I would be tempted to leave them be but I am not an expert, I'm sure othwers will reply soon.
regards Jim

 

[oliver90owner]

Next week (another seven days) would likely be too late, even if she is still there now. Two or three days would be good.

The words of wisdom are: "Don't rush into things like destroying all queen cells. Stand back and do your thinking first, before taking drastic action, in future"

Destroying queen cells willy-nilly is bad, but shaking the bees into a bottom box and leaving a couple frames (one with brood and laying space) down there, with a Q/E over, would make finding the queen so much easier tomorrow; doing an 'insurance split' with at least one open queen cell was another trick missed.

RAB

 

[alynewbee]

Thank you so much, and you are so right. I should have shut up shop, had a cuppa and a good think about it. Weather permitting, I'll go in on Monday prepared for multiple eventualities.

Many thanks again.

Aly

 

[Cazza]

Given that you went to all the trouble of shaking the bees off the brood framesinto an empty brood chamber, you could have easily followed Rab's advice and put new frames and one frame of brood in the lower box with a QE on and then the brood in a top brood box.

The beauty of this is that most of the bees will go throught the QE to look after the brood in the top box. The queen will most likely end up on the brood frame in the lower box. This makes finding her SO much easier. I'm betting she is still there. Personally I wouldn't wait til Monday.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Cazza

 

[Chris B]

No need to panic.
It's unlikely you've lost a swarm yet and the queen is probably still there, and you have a few days to work out the best course of action.
The big question is do you have a spare hive with frames, or at least a spare brood box with frames? Options are limited without the spare kit.

 

[alynewbee]

No need to panic.
It's unlikely you've lost a swarm yet and the queen is probably still there, and you have a few days to work out the best course of action.
The big question is do you have a spare hive with frames, or at least a spare brood box with frames? Options are limited without the spare kit.

Thankfully I do! I've got a spare entire set up.

So, bearing in mind I think I might have destroyed all the queen cells, what do you recommend as my next course of action? These are my ponderings.....

Possibility a) I've probably still got my queen, I need to find her and mark her. So, I could shake all the bees off into my fresh box and put one frame of brood in there (making sure no queen cells) QE on top, all the brood in the old box on top of that, another qe (I know I shouldn't need that but belt and braces!) then the supers then the lid. Tomorrow, find and mark the queen. But then it all gets a bit vague, because if I hadn't got rid of all the queen cells, then I would have moved the top box onto a new stand, reduced the number of q cells to 1, shut up shop and let them get on with it. But I think I don't have any queen cells so I would be moving a box with no chance of making a new queen (although the frames did have very tiny eggs, so could they make themselves a new queen from those?)

Possibility b) ...... errr

One thing I do know for absolutely certain - I wish I'd followed RAB's advice and shut up shop, had a cuppa, and asked for advice! You live and learn!

 

[oliver90owner]

If she is there and they are in swarm mode they will build more queen cells; if she has gone and there were still eggs/young larvae, they will build more queen cells. Stop worrying. If you find her do the A/S. Just don't shake any frame with a capped queen cell that you may want to keep!

If she is still there, half the A/S will be achieved by already separating her from the main brood box by the method given ie no need to go hunting through a whole box of frames. Makes it simpler for some.

 

[alynewbee]

Thanks for all the advice - this is what I did. Shook them all into the empty brood chamber as advised, then QE, then brood on top of that, another QE (belt and braces), then the supers, crown board and roof.

Tomorrow I'm gonna - move top brood box onto a spare floor, go through it and reduce the number of queen cells to one (perhaps 2), QE, put supers on top, shut up shop and let them get on with it for three weeks hoping to see eggs at the end of that time - there's (there're?) plenty of stores in that box so wasn't going to feed them.

The bottom brood box I was thinking of leaving for one week then checking it to make sure the queen is definitely in there and laying up (and she should be a whole lot easier to see too) and I think I should feed that box too as there are no stores down there.

Phew - a sweaty few days beekeeping! Not out of the woods yet but I have very much appreciated the help I've had - thank you.

Aly

 

[alynewbee]

Things looking better today. Now have two hives - one with my (now marked) queen, some stores. Didn't bother looking for eggs, just shut up shop as soon as I saw the queen cos they've had enough of my incompetence to put up with of late. The other hive contains the brood, loads of bees, stores and I've reduced the queen cell count to 2 unsealed, both with larvae in them.

So, my plan is to leave the one with the queen in for 1 week then inspect to check that she is laying. The other hive, I'll leave for three weeks and hope I have eggs at the end of that time.

A lot could still go wrong I know, but I'm definitely happier than I was last week. Thank you all so much for your help - I really appreciate it.

 

[beeno]

Hi alynewbie,
Old queen may still want to swarm therefore if they use two day old eggs you may only have three days before she swarms. Likewise with the other lot i.e. you may have more casts than you bargained for! Inspect both in three days time!

 

[alynewbee]

Hi alynewbie,
Old queen may still want to swarm therefore if they use two day old eggs you may only have three days before she swarms. Likewise with the other lot i.e. you may have more casts than you bargained for! Inspect both in three days time!

Hi Beeno, thanks for replying but now I'm really confused! I put my old queen in a totally fresh box (no eggs), so won't she think that she has swarmed already? She's not absconded yet (although the weather has been foul). I wondered if they might think about supercedure, though, but thought if I inspected in 7 days (from when I first put her in the new box) I would be ok.

As to the box that had two unsealed queen cells in yesterday - why do I need to inspect that one in 3 days? Is it because I left two cells and didn't reduce it to one? If I do inspect and see more than the two cells I left, what should I do? I thought I should just leave that hive to get on with producing their queen undisturbed.

Boy oh boy this beekeeping lark is perplexing.

Thanks
Alynewbie

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would think you would be OK leaving the Q+ hive for a week. I might be tempted to either put an excluder under the brood box or a piece over the entrance for a few days.

As for the Q- ......the reason that you go into the hive after the split is that the bees will/may make emergency queen cells when their queen is removed so you will have to nobble those
Bees can make QCs from larvae up to three days old so I would look in six days when there are no larvae left for them to use.
I would have left only the one QC

 

[alynewbee]

I would think you would be OK leaving the Q+ hive for a week. I might be tempted to either put an excluder under the brood box or a piece over the entrance for a few days.

As for the Q- ......the reason that you go into the hive after the split is that the bees will/may make emergency queen cells when their queen is removed so you will have to nobble those
Bees can make QCs from larvae up to three days old so I would look in six days when there are no larvae left for them to use.
I would have left only the one QC

Hi EricA,

Great, that makes sense. I'll go in to the Q- box on Friday to see what they've been up to, and keep an eye on the weather and go into the Q+ one on either Sunday / Monday.

Thanks again.

Aly