Nadir or Super?

[JazzJPH]

So, I've looked around to see what this is all about and to get the terminology right:

Shallow box - commonly referred to as a super, but actually just a shallow box
Super - any box (deep, shallow etc.) above the brood box
Nadir - any box below the brood box

Is that about right?

Had anyone nadired a shallow box? In the heat of the moment today I wanted to add a super and decided to place it under the brood box, with a QE on top. Line of reasoning is that brood gets the heat that rises and the incoming bees climb up through the combs.

However, I have come here to lay this all out in hope other members can help me learn more about all this and why I should/should not do these things.

 

[Swarm]

A bottom box in Summertime serves no purpose other than as a brood box. The excluder will trap drones and annoy your foragers.
Nadir any partly filled combs that are too high in water content at the end of harvest to allow the bees to move it to where they want their stores. Above them.

 

[JazzJPH]

Thanks for that Swarm. Makes a lot of sense. I'll go out and move the shallow on top of the brood box with the QE in place

 

[drex]

Bees naturally put stores above the brood. Fine to put the box under if you wanted brood in it, but you would defeat that with your excluder.

 

[Murox]

Jazz, "Shallow box - commonly referred to as a super, but actually just a shallow box
Super - any box (deep, shallow etc.) above the brood box
Nadir - any box below the brood box"
Yes thats about right-the act of nadiring is just adding a box below another instead of on top, there are reasons for doing this at different times .

A shallow box plus a deep box together is 'bored and a half' (it doesn't matter which box is on top) and the queen is free to lay in both boxes. For practical reasons most people use double brood rather than brood and a half. Double brood is two deep boxes on top of each other. If you utilise a queen excluder it is placed above the top box in either scenario.

Sometimes a queen excluder can be placed the floor of the hive to prevent the queen from leaving a hive, you can read up about that later.

For now if I read it correctly you have from the floor up: a shallow, a queen excluder, a deep brood box then roof with or without crown board. Remove the shallow and excluder.
If your bees are overflowing a single deep brood box(all frames full of brood)then by all means add another deep brood box below the other one. You may or may not need to place a shallow box - a super - on top of your brood box to receive nectar. You may place the queen excluder in between top top brood box and the super you have just put on.

 

[Beefriendly]

Thanks for that Swarm. Makes a lot of sense. I'll go out and move the shallow on top of the brood box with the QE in place

JaZZ...PATIENCE.
Are they ready for a super yet...they weren't last week.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A shallow box plus a deep box together is 'brood and a half' (it doesn't matter which box is on top) and the queen is free to lay in both boxes..

Commonly known as an abortion

JaZZ...PATIENCE.
Are they ready for a super yet...they weren't last week.

you're chucking them space right left and centre, you need to leave them settle and consolidate

 

[JazzJPH]

So I went out and sorted the mess I made - I put the shallow on top with QE. So I'm now running single brood with one shallow super.

Understandably they weren't best pleased but I got away unharmed.

I added the super because they're running out of space. I don't have another deep box so couldn't run double brood. Also don't fancy brood and half after recent advice on that subject.

Is single brood with a super such a bad thing? There is only one frame half drawn. The standard cells on this frame are full and the rest is drone comb. Everything else is full so I assumed they're running out of space.

 

[Murox]

.....edit.........Is single brood with a super such a bad thing?

There is only one frame half drawn.
The standard cells on this frame are full and the rest is drone comb. -WHERE which box ?

Everything else is full so I assumed they're running out of space. ? your deep ? has how many frames of brood ? how many seams are covered in bees ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is single brood with a super such a bad thing? Everything else is full .

Full is a relative thing - they've been in there a few weeks, have drawn out a whole brood box (without even foundation) and the queen has laid it up. Any bees you have in there will be going flat out rearing brood, there will be no more bees (thus a surplus foraging force) until more bees emerge, they are now at the point where, relatively speaking, things slow down for a little while, adding a super is sufficient, adding a second empty brood box would achieve nothing - it will probably be ignored by the bees for a while yet

 

[Adam Bee]

(snip)
Everything else is full so I assumed they're running out of space. ? your deep ? has how many frames of brood ? how many seams are covered in bees ?

That is a “seam of bees”?

 

[JazzJPH]

There is only one frame half drawn.
The standard cells on this frame are full and the rest is drone comb. -WHERE which box ?

Everything else is full so I assumed they're running out of space. ? your deep ? has how many frames of brood ? how many seams are covered in bees ?

The frames I was referring to are all in the brood box (standard size national). The shallow is a box full of frames with foundation.

7 frames of brood. All frames are covered in bees, although the middle frames are slightly busier.

Full is a relative thing - they've been in there a few weeks, have drawn out a whole brood box (without even foundation) and the queen has laid it up. Any bees you have in there will be going flat out rearing brood, there will be no more bees (thus a surplus foraging force) until more bees emerge, they are now at the point where, relatively speaking, things slow down for a little while, adding a super is sufficient, adding a second empty brood box would achieve nothing - it will probably be ignored by the bees for a while yet

I see I likely have jumped the gun again, being overly keen to get immersed in the world of beekeeping. There was only the one frame without foundation. The rest had wired foundation.

Whilst I have been looking forward to adding a super, I felt at the time that they'll not take long to draw out that last frame, then if they fill it with stores they're out of space. What would happen at that point?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You often find that if you add a super when there is still undrawn foundation in the brood box, they will zip up and start to work on the shallow and ignore the deep - basically leaving you with one frame less for brooding.
The rule of thumb is to add a super when you have eight frames of brood - this is usually applicable to a full colony building up from winter (not a hived nuc) so all the frames already drawn. You may think you have a brood box full of bees, but I think you have a little way to go.
Adding a super would be the most I'd do at this point.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Stop faffing about.. You will end up squashing the queen... Buy more gear... Jazz is the new Millet lol

 

[JazzJPH]

... Jazz is the new Millet lol

... A decent bloke who is generous and helpful? I'll take that

 

[pargyle]

Stop faffing about.. You will end up squashing the queen... Buy more gear... Jazz is the new Millet lol

More like IRISHGUY ... whatever happened to him ?

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=622558#post622558

 

[Teebeeaitch]

It seems to me that beekeepers like to try all sorts of weird and wonderful manipulations just because they can. The one thing that seems to be the hardest to grasp is leaving them alone. What some call management can also be seen as interference.

 

[Millet]

. Jazz is the new Millet lol

What is that supposed to mean halfwit .. Jazz is new to the hobby and keen so obviously he will make mistakes and fix them at a later date...can you not remember what it was like when you got your first colony..show me someone who has never made a mistake and i will show you a liar..now tootle of and go annoy someone who gives a chit..

 

[Adam Bee]

Let’s all save the salt for Sunday dinner. All of us new-bees appreciate the learned experience of the established keepers. There is no way we could be as good as we are with out your help and advice. We new-bees do, on the other hand, really apppreciate it when there is some sympathy and understanding of all of our incessant questions that we have and obvious mistakes that we do when trying to learn and not lose faith in our new-chosen field.

 

[Beefriendly]

And you think experienced beekeepers don't make mistakes. I find I'm constantly inventing new mistakes to make....lol