Moving a Nuc & requeening a hive

[elainemary]

Hi some advice appreciated pls, about uniting a Nuc to a hive. The Nuc currently has 3 frames brood, the queen is young but has a good brood pattern & is from another good hive. The hive I want to requeen also has a blue queen too, on 7 frames brood plus super (leaving this). Requeening as it’s feistier than I’d like.

They are too far away from each other in the apiary, to move 3ft per day. Thinking of moving the Nuc home & then bringing it back close to the hive I want to unite it with. the questions I would like advice on are as follows:

How long would the Nuc need to be away, so it doesn’t orientate back to its old position when I return it?

As the hive I want to unite it to, is a little feisty, but manageable, would you unite the Nuc with the queen I’m keeping on top?

Finally, would you cage her as well during the uniting process (over newspaper)?

Appreciate your advice

 

[GuyNir]

Hives can be a bit more defensive this time of year, so think again if you really want to unite?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you prepare the nuc for uniting beforehand then do the whole thing late evening, you can just move it over and put it on top of the now queenless hive immediately, no need to move three miles away, by the time the bees in the top have chewed though the paper and mingled with the other bees, they will orientate to the new position, even the few bees who go back to the original site will quickly realise their mistake and return to their new 'home'
so, to recap - in the afternoon put the nuc colony in a full brood box (dummied down if you want, they're not going to be in there long).
Despatch the queen in the other box then put a few sheets of newspaper over the top ready, held down with a spare queen excluder (if there are supers, newspaper goes on top of them)
In the evening when flying has quietened down, remove roof and crownboard fron queenless colony, quickly lift the donor colony and drop if on top of the newspaper, roof on....that's it.
Consolidate the two halves a few days later.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I agree with JBM. It’s what I do whenever I unite colonies.

 

[elainemary]

If you prepare the nuc for uniting beforehand then do the whole thing late evening, you can just move it over and put it on top of the now queenless hive immediately, no need to move three miles away, by the time the bees in the top have chewed though the paper and mingled with the other bees, they will orientate to the new position, even the few bees who go back to the original site will quickly realise their mistake and return to their new 'home'
so, to recap - in the afternoon put the nuc colony in a full brood box (dummied down if you want, they're not going to be in there long).
Despatch the queen in the other box then put a few sheets of newspaper over the top ready, held down with a spare queen excluder (if there are supers, newspaper goes on top of them)
In the evening when flying has quietened down, remove roof and crownboard fron queenless colony, quickly lift the donor colony and drop if on top of the newspaper, roof on....that's it.
Consolidate the two halves a few days later.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[elainemary]

Hives can be a bit more defensive this time of year, so think again if you really want to unite?

Mine are all ok at the moment, except this one, which has been defensive all season, so keen to get it sorted before autumn.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Textbook says to do the job in early evening when flying bees are at home and get the message, but must admit that if needs be I unite at any time of day and without problem; as JBM said, bees will work out a new home.

Needs means that the apiary is a fair distance away or that (as happened this week) I identified the new colony that mated unpleasantly: was pinged at midday and by 12.10 a boot had done the job and the colony united.

If you have supers on, Elaine, don't forget to separate them with newspaper as well.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Textbook says to do the job in early evening when flying bees are at home and get the message, but must admit that if needs be I unite at any time of day and without problem; as JBM said, bees will work out a new home.

Needs means that the apiary is a fair distance away or that (as happened this week) I identified the new colony that mated unpleasantly: was pinged at midday and by 12.10 a boot had done the job and the colony united.

If you have supers on, Elaine, don't forget to separate them with newspaper as well.

It depends where the supers are. if they are on the bottom one, newspaper goes on top of the supers, unite happens super to brood box, as in this case the top 'colony' is a nuc, doubt it has a super so no need for any separation, in fact, I can't think of any reason to separate supers with newspaper!
Started (couldn't finish it, it was dire) reading the article in this month's BBKA comic on unititing what an absolute abortion!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Started (couldn't finish it, it was dire) reading the article in this month's BBKA comic on unititing what an absolute abortion!!

It gets worse. The rest of the magazine.
It’s a real pity because a lot of new beekeepers rely on publications like this to guide them in their early years.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I can't think of any reason to separate supers with newspaper!

if there are supers, newspaper goes on top of them.

Depends if the Q- and Q+ broods are united with paper and their respective supers put together on top. If so, the principle of separating families with paper applies.

In Elaine's case, your plan had the Q+ brood put onto the Q- colonies' super, which is far easier and not one I've tried. If there were say, three supers on, is there a risk that the distance to the bottom box (now Q-) would persuade that lot to make QCs?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Depends if the Q- and Q+ broods are united with paper and their respective supers put together on top. If so, the principle of separating families with paper applies.

But who in their right mind would do such a silly thing? - there seems to be an obsession with a certain section of the beekeeping community to take something simple them b*gger it about for no logical reason.

In Elaine's case, your plan had the Q+ brood put onto the Q- colonies' super, which is far easier and not one I've tried. If there were say, three supers on, is there a risk that the distance to the bottom box (now Q-) would persuade that lot to make QCs?

I've done it a few times with multiple supers, never been a problem, they're through in hours and the pheremone quickly spreads.

 

[elainemary]

It depends where the supers are. if they are on the bottom one, newspaper goes on top of the supers, unite happens super to brood box, as in this case the top 'colony' is a nuc, doubt it has a super so no need for any separation, in fact, I can't think of any reason to separate supers with newspaper!
Started (couldn't finish it, it was dire) reading the article in this month's BBKA comic on unititing what an absolute abortion!!

Hi, what did you disagree with in the article? Often find there are differences in opinion between beekeepers. Should relatively new beekeepers conclude from this, that sometimes more than one method works?
Elaine

 

[elainemary]

It depends where the supers are. if they are on the bottom one, newspaper goes on top of the supers, unite happens super to brood box, as in this case the top 'colony' is a nuc, doubt it has a super so no need for any separation, in fact, I can't think of any reason to separate supers with newspaper!
Started (couldn't finish it, it was dire) reading the article in this month's BBKA comic on unititing what an absolute abortion!!

Hi, what did you disagree with in the article? Often find there are differences in opinion between beekeepers. Should relatively new beekeepers conclude from this, that more than one method works?
Elaine

Depends if the Q- and Q+ broods are united with paper and their respective supers put together on top. If so, the principle of separating families with paper applies.

In Elaine's case, your plan had the Q+ brood put onto the Q- colonies' super, which is far easier and not one I've tried. If there were say, three supers on, is there a risk that the distance to the bottom box (now Q-) would persuade that lot to make QCs?

i had a bad experience earlier this season uniting a queenless Nuc (Dark locally adapted bees v gentle) over a Queen right colony with a super (Lighter in colour but again locally adapted and gentle). I United in the normal way, over broadsheet newspaper (2 layers) with a few pinprick holes), no brace comb to puncture. I United late afternoon, about a month ago just before the late summer flow. Fighting took place with handfuls of dead bees outside the entrance the following 2 days. Then they settled down. V distressing for bees and me! The smaller colony on top seemed to get the brunt of it. Queen in receiving colony was ok when I dismantled the unite. Really put me off uniting over a super. Another beekeeper said he would have united brood to brood and papered the super on top, though can’t think why this would matter, unless the receiving colony thought they were being robbed? As it was just before a main flow and stores were short (there were some) my other conclusion was I should have fed the receiving colony beforehand - the Nuc has plenty. Wondered if you’ve experienced this before re fighting & any thoughts on what I might have done wrong, so I can learn from it.
Thanks
Elaine

 

[Malcolm Stamp]

What has worked for me is to cage the queen you are keeping, squish the other one, give both colonies a serious dusting of Icing sugar and then move them both together, interleaving the different frames. Does get the whole job done in one shot and the general disruption seems to create a housekeeping response which overrides the desire for inter colony aggression. Reading all of the above comments I wonder if I have just been lucky?

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

Elaine Mary - I followed the advice above from Jenks and Dani, earlier in the season and all went well.
As Jenks says, why make things more complicated than you need?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi, what did you disagree with in the article? Often find there are differences in opinion between beekeepers. Should relatively new beekeepers conclude from this, that more than one method works?
Elaine

i had a bad experience earlier this season uniting a queenless Nuc (Dark locally adapted bees v gentle) over a Queen right colony with a super (Lighter in colour but again locally adapted and gentle). I United in the normal way, over broadsheet newspaper (2 layers) with a few pinprick holes), no brace comb to puncture. I United late afternoon, about a month ago just before the late summer flow. Fighting took place with handfuls of dead bees outside the entrance the following 2 days. Then they settled down. V distressing for bees and me! The smaller colony on top seemed to get the brunt of it. Queen in receiving colony was ok when I dismantled the unite. Really put me off uniting over a super. Another beekeeper said he would have united brood to brood and papered the super on top, though can’t think why this would matter, unless the receiving colony thought they were being robbed? As it was just before a main flow and stores were short (there were some) my other conclusion was I should have fed the receiving colony beforehand - the Nuc has plenty. Wondered if you’ve experienced this before re fighting & any thoughts on what I might have done wrong, so I can learn from it.
Thanks
Elaine

I would have united once the bees had stopped flying
If there was nothing in the super I would have removed it
If they had no stores then yes I would have given both colonies a litre of syrup before uniting
When in the process did you remove one queen? Or were they queen less and for how long?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi, what did you disagree with in the article?

A bit busy at the moment but let's just look at the 'rules' (seem to find in beekeeping that when 'rules' are mentioned it just means they are prone to repeat things parrot fashion rather than think)
1. - rubbish, it doesn't really matter although in general it works out that way as it's usually the case it's a nuc with a new queen being united with a full colony
2. - rubbish, it makes no difference which way they go
3. We've discussed this, so no it's not the case you 'have' to and moving more than once a day is pretty stupid.
4 and 5 are the only ones that make sense, but I think 4 was just by accident!.
to be honest, reading the first three paragraphs was enough so the only sensible bits tucked towards the end lost my attention completely.
Unfortunately, there was so much dross featured in this edition that I quickly lost patience.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ll add my it.
It all seems to be making a real labour of it.
I have always prepped both hives including newspaper under excluder and loosening the brood box to be moved in the afternoon. In the evening I just take the roof off one hive, lift the other one on top and go home for a beer.
There’s no experience involved. Just common sense. It’s what I did with my first ever unite and thereafter.
If there are supers there is no reason to interfere with them.
Why prep both colonies yet leave putting on the newspaper and having to open the bottom hive in the evening?
Smoke under the bottom box? Why? It just disturbs the bees.
Leave for a week? The bees are through the newspaper overnight. Three days is fine.
It doesn’t matter at all where the queen is though it’s handy having her in the bottom box.
I had to laugh at the “ The colony moved goes on top”

 

[elainemary]

I would have united once the bees had stopped flying
If there was nothing in the super I would have removed it
If they had no stores then yes I would have given both colonies a litre of syrup before uniting
When in the process did you remove one queen? Or were they queen less and for how long?

Hi they were queenless for about a week but had some sealed brood

 

[elainemary]

I’ll add my it.
It all seems to be making a real labour of it.
I have always prepped both hives including newspaper under excluder and loosening the brood box to be moved in the afternoon. In the evening I just take the roof off one hive, lift the other one on top and go home for a beer.
There’s no experience involved. Just common sense. It’s what I did with my first ever unite and thereafter.
If there are supers there is no reason to interfere with them.
Why prep both colonies yet leave putting on the newspaper and having to open the bottom hive in the evening?
Smoke under the bottom box? Why? It just disturbs the bees.
Leave for a week? The bees are through the newspaper overnight. Three days is fine.
It doesn’t matter at all where the queen is though it’s handy having her in the bottom box.
I had to laugh at the “ The colony moved goes on top”

Thanks - that’s my experience too, they’re through within 24 hours & ive experimented this season reassembling after 3-4 days, which generally seems fine. Don’t need to leave for a week, which is also what all the books say!