Missing Queen

[VixyB]

Hi,

I started my first hive in early June this year from a nuc that I bought. Everything has been going very well and they have filled four frames with honey in the super - mostly uncapped at the moment though.

Last weekend when I did a hive inspection the bees were very quiet and the queen seemed very lively, hopping between frames. There were some queen cells which I removed.

This weekend the bees seemed agitated and there was no sign of the queen. She is marked and I checked twice, but couldn't find her. There were about five capped queen cells across two frames in the centre of the hive, which for now are still there.

I am going to go this evening to have another look for the queen. If I still can't find her, I need to make a decision. My question is; given how late they started as a colony, should I let them raise their own queen and have a few weeks gap before there is any new brood, or should I get rid of the queen cells and install a mated queen?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

99pct they have swarmed and luckily you have QCs. Either choose one, or if the colony and you are up to it, split 2 ways on one each. Remove the rest.

It's natural and you will have a more locally-adapted Q. I would not buy one. Read the WBKA booklet on Q cells.

 

[VixyB]

So you don't think them raising their own will be a problem for them with such a big gap in laying?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

It depends on your colony and conditions but I'll just tell you I was in that pisition on 19 May and swarming again by 21 June. The new Q was up and lYing in 2 weeks. That's exceptional I think, but it shouldn't be a lot longer than that with a bit of luck with the weather. It!s still only mid-July so good time to build more for winter.

 

[VixyB]

Great - thank you!! That gives me a bit more confidence to let them get on with it themselves. It is just a bit nerve racking when I have only one hive and it is such an investment when buying a colony!!

 

[Chris B]

Personally I wouldn't want daughter queens from a queen that swarmed in her first year, swarmy year or not. You are storing up future trouble for yourself, especially if you reward the swarmy behaviour by splitting as suggested and producing two swarmy queens. But why not split the colony, leave a queen cell in one half, and use a quality bought-in queen in the other. Next season you will see that some bees are miles better than others.

 

[ratcatcher]

Great - thank you!! That gives me a bit more confidence to let them get on with it themselves. It is just a bit nerve racking when I have only one hive and it is such an investment when buying a colony!!

all the more reason to get yourself another spare hive, two is always better than one, as TTLTB has said, with that many cells, and only one hive, you would pick the best one or two cells and remove the rest, to try and stop cast swarms, having a spare hive would mean you could split the colony and the cells, then if anything happens badly on one, you still have the other, they can always be combined back together if you really only want to keep one hive, but it make sense to have that back up option

 

[VixyB]

Ooohhh decisions, decisions! This bee keeping business isn't easy is it!!

I have the nuc box from when I bought the bees, so to split them, would i take a few frames from the original hive (some with brood and some with pollen and nectar), put them in the nuc with some new frames and then put new frames in the original hive?

Presumably it wouldn't matter whether I put a new queen in the nuc or the hive?

How would I then swap the frames on the nuc into a new hive????

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Chris B that's not fair (to the bees): everyone's swarming this year. I didn't keep my second set of swarm cells but that was exceptional. That aaid, splitting and buying one Q is a luxury solution for sure...

And completely agree with ratcatcher on two colonies.

 

[oliver90owner]

Unless adding a laying queen, I would be careful in advocating splitting a colony, whose strength we have not really any clue. Need to know more about that before recommending that route, what with wasps around the corner.

If it means going back to two nuc sized colonies (if that, after swarming) particular emphasis should be placed on cavity size for the full hive and entrance size as well for both new boxes.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Ooohhh decisions, decisions! This bee keeping business isn't easy is it!!



I have the nuc box from when I bought the bees, so to split them, would i take a few frames from the original hive (some with brood and some with pollen and nectar), put them in the nuc with some new frames and then put new frames in the original hive?



Presumably it wouldn't matter whether I put a new queen in the nuc or the hive?



How would I then swap the frames on the nuc into a new hive????



Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all about right. Just keep each colony to one Q or one QC. One sneaky trick is to swap a QC for the Q when you introduce her. Google Q introduction if you go that route; lots of interesting stuff out there including one well-researched paper which summarises to "leave them Q- for 6 days then drop the Q in with a lot of smoke". It's a fascinating area and you can tell a lot from how the bees react to the cage.

I don't understand your "how would I swap" question. Sorry.

 

[VixyB]

If it means going back to two nuc sized colonies (if that, after swarming) particular emphasis should be placed on cavity size for the full hive and entrance size as well for both new boxes.

Please can you tell me what you mean by cavity size for the full hive?

Thanks

 

[Bosleeu]

Personally I wouldn't want daughter queens from a queen that swarmed in her first year, swarmy year or not. You are storing up future trouble for yourself, especially if you reward the swarmy behaviour by splitting as suggested and producing two swarmy queens. But why not split the colony, leave a queen cell in one half, and use a quality bought-in queen in the other. Next season you will see that some bees are miles better than others.

This saves me from typing the exact same stuff. Should hopefully leave you with two colonies giving you some backup. If you put your eggs/queencells in one basket /hive and she does not mate successfully, you may struggle to find a queen to buy by then that late in the season.

I would use the queencell in the original spot and start a Nuc with a good new queen nearby/on top. Try to build them up ASAP. If the virgin mates successfully you have two colonies for next season, if not you will have to unite.

Your decision to make, as is often the case, plenty of gray area and room for opinion here.

 

[VixyB]

I don't understand your "how would I swap" question. Sorry.

So if I put some of the bees in a nuc and then in a few weeks time, wanted to move them into a hive, how do I do that?

Do I just put the hive exactly where the nuc was with the entrance in the same direction, move the frames into the new hive and then hope that any foragers go into the right hive?

Sorry to ask so many questions!!!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Oh gotcha; but haven't you done that once? That's why I was confused. I'll let o90o answer that bit but remember NONE OF US HAS SEEN YOUR BEES and your mentor should have a lot of input. We are all conditioning our answers on the bees being strong enough to split if you split them and I hear o90o pointing out some of the considerations. If your nuc was bursting, the swarm was not too large and you have lots of brood, should be OK. How many feames of sealed brood were there at last inspection?

a better question is "how do I do the original split?" You can either leave one half where it is and end up with all the flyers in one place (so put more capped brood in the other) or "split the difference" putting both a couple of feet either side of the original site.

 

[VixyB]

I would have to check to be absolutely sure, but I think 6 frames. There are two frames that they haven't done much with and then the rest are full of capped honey/nectar/pollen.

I don't have a mentor but have asked my local association for one. Whether I am allocated one before I have to make a decision I am not sure. Maybe I will just ring one of the committee members and see if they can help.

When I bought the nuc they came from over a 2 hour drive away, so I put them straight into a new hive. I don't think I can get hold of a new hive fast enough, but could sort something out with the nuc box pretty quickly. I would just need to make up some frames.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If you really have six frames of sealed brood a) that's not bad q genes and b) you are in a position to split. Going back into the nuc will be fine for now: I'd tend to have that be the non-flier side as it's nice and snug. Just as long as it's not a weak colony you're making. Better one strong than two weak or even one OK and one weak. Is it a Buckfast colony by chance?

 

[VixyB]

I am going to have another look for the queen this evening (just in case), so will double check the number of frames then. What do you think would be the minimum number of frames of sealed brood to be able to split?

It is a Buckfast colony yes.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Most of what to do next has been covered - good to have an experienced beek and mentor like Chris B and o9o stepping in with some words of wisdom.
But just in case the same mistake is made again:

Last weekend when I did a hive inspection the bees were very quiet and the queen seemed very lively, hopping between frames. There were some queen cells which I removed.

It's well worth remembering that knocking down all the QC's and hoping all will be OK is not an option in beekeeping. What I think happened is they made more QC's from older brood after you knocked the first lot down and they swarmed. If you find QC's you must take action then - well, no real harm in shutting up, getting the kit together and planning your course of action but action this day is the phrase.
Have a look at this link - very handy (don't tell SWMBO that as she was responsible for funding it!)

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Rereading o90o's post, let me emphasise my qualifier on splitting "if the bees are up to it". You really need help making that decision locally, although what you have described sounds like a good start. Don't go following every goofy idea off the internet...

<ADD>She won't be there. Sorry. </ADD>