Mike Palmer nuc method for UK national size

[Finman]

What way used you run nucs close together that gave issues?

I cannot see any idea in that.

If nucs should be warmer, why dont you grow bigger nucs that they live by theirself.

 

[foghornleghorn]

A securely divided brood box with entrances at opposite corners. Tried it several times and the result was the same every time, two became one.

Never used it since.

PH

When started with queen cells/virgins or with mated queens also?

Have often split boxes here, started with mated queens and never saw any issue with fairly reasonable numbers

 

[Finman]

When started with queen cells/virgins or with mated queens also?

Have often split boxes here, started with mated queens and never saw any issue with fairly reasonable numbers

Never seen..... I used system 20 years and I saw issues continuously.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Never seen..... I used system 20 years and I saw issues continuously.

Wonder what it is that causes the problems. Did it here well over 100 times with no noticeable problems. Others let them join in the supers also and get on well

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Hi Courty,
I was enthused by Mr Palmer's videos of twin colony boxes and I've run one for a couple of years. Some above have confused these with nucleus hives. They become 2 10 frame colonies side by side. 2 colonies hunkered together makes more sense in a North American winter than here.

See image. They are homemade as you can tell by the gaps which sometimes have to be taped up to stop robbing. My woodworking not the best.

Looking at your original post you are looking into costs which I can't help with as my time is worth little and I like making stuff so this works for me. If you can't find ready made boxes I'd look into buying seconds and cutting brood boxes in 2.

. . .. Ben

 

[Poly Hive]

If I remember rightly (over 28 years ago now) they were started with cells.

PH

 

[Anduril]

As Poly Hive and Finman, they work to an extent, but as Black Mountain Honey who has had only 50% success with the BS Honeybee nucs. As an example of things that can go wrong. https://youtu.be/CI3EU8r85_c

 

[Parsonage Bees]

As Poly Hive and Finman, they work to an extent, but as Black Mountain Honey who has had only 50% success with the BS Honeybee nucs. As an example of things that can go wrong. https://youtu.be/CI3EU8r85_c

I had some problems this year getting one side queen right again. It took 2 attempts by giving them queen cells. This was while they had shared boxes above the excluder. Might have been chance or it might have been the pheremones from the queen next door. They are 2 10 frame colonies. Next time I could move the crownboard down on that side. (I successfully did an artificial swarm on the other side as well this year.)

I don't think I'd keep them as 2 5 frame nucs long term. I used the bottom split brood box this way in the first year until they built up enough to move into full size boxes.

If I built another one I'd make it so that the central divider could be pulled out to let the brood box be used as normal.

The colony with the entrance facing north doesn't seem to do as well as the one facing south but this could be chance.

 

[mbc]

Over the last five years I've had better percentages of successful matings from the lyson mini plus hives, which are a six half langstroth frame format with a removable divider down the middle and entrances either side, than with the apideas and kieler mating nucs.

 

[madasafish]

I had two attempts at QR using a B.E. double mating nuc.

It was hard work keeping the two halves separate..
But I did overwinter two side by side colonies in one twin nuc overwinter..

Now gathering dust... too much hassle.

 

[SDM]

As Poly Hive and Finman, they work to an extent, but as Black Mountain Honey who has had only 50% success with the BS Honeybee nucs. As an example of things that can go wrong. https://youtu.be/CI3EU8r85_c

Similar for me with the bsh nucs. 3 or 4 out of 10 started with mated queens needed uniting shortly after. Pretty sure they were the only failures out of 60 or so nucs set up the same way.

 

[SDM]

Over the last five years I've had better percentages of successful matings from the lyson mini plus hives, which are a six half langstroth frame format with a removable divider down the middle and entrances either side, than with the apideas and kieler mating nucs.

Success in what way ? Obviously more mated queens but how ? Were queens simply unmated in the others, lost on mating flights, absconded?
Ive noticed no difference in ultimate sucess from a mix of 3 and 5 frame nucs, apideas( and similar) or kielers other than the minis often lay sooner.

 

[mbc]

Success in what way ? Obviously more mated queens but how ? Were queens simply unmated in the others, lost on mating flights, absconded?
Ive noticed no difference in ultimate sucess from a mix of 3 and 5 frame nucs, apideas( and similar) or kielers other than the minis often lay sooner.

It's down to them being more suitable for my management, for one I overwinter them so they're already established with comb and brood for the first round of cells, also the slightly bigger volume provides a bigger buffer before they starve or get overcrowded, last year I took several packages of shook bees from them to keep them manageable.
If there is any negative effect from them being two little colonies in one box and so more confusing for returning queens this was masked by the advantages when it came to the final figures compared to other mini nucs in my operation.

 

[joelsoo]

i made some 6 frame nucs over xmas break in prep for this year's (2020) swarming season. With the thought that i can stack 2x nuc brood boxes on one another and it will be a 12 frame "double nuc brood" hive, if i run out of space to house too many bees in my allotment.

i also made some 6 frame nuc supers for them too! in total i built 4 nuc boxes and 4 nuc supers. (see attached photo)

Don't worry i don't intend to have a tower hive so tall, its likely it to end up stacked as double nuc brood and double nuc super config as space is a premium here.

 

[Courty]

Thank you for your replies, there is a lot of food for thought there.
Like Parsonage Bees, I was enthused by Mike Palmer's system of running continuous nuc colonies to support production colonies and also to produce new colonies or saleable nucs.
I picked up a copy of EB Wedmore's A Manual of Beekeeping, first published in 1932, it describes shared brood boxes with oposing entrances so as Mr Palmer says in his talks, it's not new.
I am just surprised that I can't seem to find the two half sized boxes that would fit side by side over a brood box.
I don't have the facilities to make my own at the moment, which seems to be the way forward. I like the look of Joelsoo and Parsonage's boxes.

I'm looking at plans for my future retirement, which I intend to involve a lot more bees, hence wanting costs to make a reasonable business plan.
Looks like I may need a carpentery course and a some tools to invest in if I want to try the Palmer method.

Alternatively maybe just stick with standard nuc boxes if our climate doesn't justify the need for shared heat.

On that note, do any of the poly nucs have supers or extra brood boxes on top?
I have a Maisemore six frame national nuc that I bought from Abelo, I'll have to look into that as an alternative.
I have Abelo national polyhives that I really like, their crown board seems made for putting nuc boxes on top but Abelo don't seem to do anything that will fit on top, surprisingly.

Running plenty of nucs still seems a good idea to support a large apiary.

Thanks

Courty

 

[Finman]

.

Buy good productive queens to your 4 hives, and you do not need to support them with nucs

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Adding more space on top of poly nuc boxes? This came up today from Black Mountain Honey on The Fleecebook by coincidence:

https://youtu.be/rW3IJzKhb9A

I don't follow the poly hive discussions here but another could break out when you start mentioning Abelo/Maisemore/etc .

Mr Palmer's twin colonies create nucs rather than being nucs. Last year I got mine to draw a box of brood frames and produce a super of honey as well as both sides swarming. All good fun.

 

[Courty]

.

Buy good productive queens to your 4 hives, and you do not need to support them with nucs

Good suggestion Finman, although Palmer's method is based around never having to buy bees or queens because you can grow your own. I will probably need to buy some good quality queens to scale up though.
I have two good quality queens that I bought and one home grown that is doing well, the fourth didn't mate after a split and was drone laying so I combined that colony and have three hives, maybe I should change my profile.

What is your current temperature in Finland? It's 2c-9c range where I live today.

One of many Mike Palmer vidoes explaining his method below, if anyone wants to watch to give some perspective on my endeavours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A

Courty

 

[Swarm]

Thank you for your replies, there is a lot of food for thought there.
Like Parsonage Bees, I was enthused by Mike Palmer's system of running continuous nuc colonies to support production colonies and also to produce new colonies or saleable nucs.
I picked up a copy of EB Wedmore's A Manual of Beekeeping, first published in 1932, it describes shared brood boxes with oposing entrances so as Mr Palmer says in his talks, it's not new.
I am just surprised that I can't seem to find the two half sized boxes that would fit side by side over a brood box.
I don't have the facilities to make my own at the moment, which seems to be the way forward. I like the look of Joelsoo and Parsonage's boxes.

I'm looking at plans for my future retirement, which I intend to involve a lot more bees, hence wanting costs to make a reasonable business plan.
Looks like I may need a carpentery course and a some tools to invest in if I want to try the Palmer method.

Alternatively maybe just stick with standard nuc boxes if our climate doesn't justify the need for shared heat.

On that note, do any of the poly nucs have supers or extra brood boxes on top?
I have a Maisemore six frame national nuc that I bought from Abelo, I'll have to look into that as an alternative.
I have Abelo national polyhives that I really like, their crown board seems made for putting nuc boxes on top but Abelo don't seem to do anything that will fit on top, surprisingly.

Running plenty of nucs still seems a good idea to support a large apiary.

Thanks

Courty

Maisemore has six frame nuc boxes that stack, both deep and shallow. I ran one stack until it got to five boxes, great way of getting drawn comb and the bees love the arrangement.

 

[Courty]

Swarm,
is it this one?
https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/polystyrene-nucleus/national-poly-nucleus-brood-chamber/

A friend of mine had a poly nuc with added supers, I'll ask him which company made it.

Courty