Matchsticks between brood and crown...

[tkwinston4]

Question in relation to this thread.....a friend has a poly hive from P****S and she said she is having trouble with condensation under the clear plastic crown board they supplied with the hive.
Not knowing the hive I suggested some matchsticks - sorry if have offended someone by saying that - but is this an inherent problem with the poly hives?
I presume that this could further problems when the cold weather arrives?

 

[richardbees]

do you put insulation on top of the crownboard?????

drstitson

Yes, and it's carefully cut to exactly fit the contours of the glass panels.
I just put it down to the fact that glass is non-absorbent so the moisture gradually builds up.
imho water droplets falling into the centre of the cluster are more damaging than a slight temperature drop around the outside.

I wonder if this topic will be raised again next year?

richard

 

[oliver90owner]

I wonder if this topic will be raised again next year?

Next year? Still time for it to be raised again this year!

 

[itma]

...a friend has a poly hive from P****S and she said she is having trouble with condensation under the clear plastic crown board they supplied with the hive.
Not knowing the hive I suggested some matchsticks - sorry if have offended someone by saying that - but is this an inherent problem with the poly hives?
I presume that this could further problems when the cold weather arrives?

Its not a problem.

With a clear and not moisture-permeable crownboard, you'll see any condensation there might be.

A little, particularly round the edge is no problem at all, even in winter. Having access to a few drops of water can help the bees to access crystallised stores.
What you'd like to avoid is condensation dripping onto the clustered bees, chilling them.


At this time of the year, the nights are cool, but the bees are probably still hard at work evaporating down Ivy nectar for winter honey stores.
Consequently, with the coolth, the hive has even more of a moist 'fug' than usual - and condensation is likely. But not a bother.

And my personal opinion is that P's roof could be beneficially thicker (providing more insulation) and with more of an overlapping sidewall (it seems no more than inch of wrapover) - for example to cover a beespace-framed polycarb crownboard.
I think the roof should be thicker (better insulated) than the walls - it doesn't seem to be the case for P's national/14x12.
But even so, I don't think that they suffer from excessive condensation.

And certainly no need whatsoever for any top ventilation.

 

[TBRNoTB]

This strikingly resembles an older thread

Could this be the point of the original post, provide entertainment over the start of winter?
I know, TH etc.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Question in relation to this thread.....a friend has a poly hive from P****S and she said she is having trouble with condensation under the clear plastic crown board they supplied with the hive.

Adding to what itma has already said ...

If you open up a hive that has a polycarbonate crown board when the outside air is cooler than the air inside the hive, and the crown board is made of thin polycarbonate, it will steam up, a little. It doesn't mean there's always condensation there.

A solution, if it does seem to be a real and ongoing problem that could be linked to the weather and wet soil, might be to put the hive in a taller stand, so air is able to circulate beneath the hive.

 

[priono]

what if i have a candy board or a feeder on top? will i need the additional insulation on top of that as well?

 

[drstitson]

The only one of my poly hives to suffer condensation was my first P*yn*s (actually WPF) nuc. The roofs are very thin (Roger has said they may look at then when next modifying moulds). My answer was to knock up a cover with some scrap ply, kingspan and a LS sized piece of roof metal. problem solved.

 

[jackbee]

Not knowing the hive I suggested some matchsticks - sorry if have offended someone by saying that

don't see why it would offend, opinions opinions opinions, that's all they are

 

[Into the lions den]

I appreciate why some may want the convenience of a clear inner cover but actually poly hives do not need inner covers, the roof does the job perfectly well by itself. We have no inner covers whatsoever in the poly unit.

Never had a condensation issue. If that is happening it has to be a flawed design in some way...and the thin nature of the roof that some have identified is a very likely culprit (I have never actually had one of these specific boxes in my hand so cannot confirm or refute that).

 

[Poly Hive]

I have I can and they are.

Some sad design errors in the unit that one phone call could have avoided.

PH

 

[Fraise]

If condensation is forming on the inside of the roof, one way of stopping it dripping onto the brood would be to have the roof (or hive?) at an angle so the water flowed off and down a wall?
What would be the problem with having the hive at (say) 10 degrees off level?

 

[itma]

I appreciate why some may want the convenience of a clear inner cover but actually poly hives do not need inner covers, the roof does the job perfectly well by itself. We have no inner covers whatsoever in the poly unit.

... (I have never actually had one of these specific boxes {Pains} in my hand so cannot confirm or refute that).

Specific to the Pains poly nuc, until the coversheet was included, there were a number of people with problems from the roof being stuck down with prop.
Because of the detail of the joint, a hive tool could not get to the prop and I gather that roofs were being broken in the effort to remove them.
Pre-emptively, the coversheet was included from the start with their subsequent full hives.

Perhaps an instruction to apply Vaseline to the mating surfaces would have dealt with the problem.
Is anything of that sort routinely used by ITLD for his cover-free poly hives?

Yes the thinness of the cover sheet itself is going to mean that it will be chilled by the cold external air on opening.
However, I suspect that a greater effect might be from its sitting directly on the frame topbars and thus impacting air circulation within the hive.
I'm using a wood-framed (and thicker) polycarb crownboard (providing beespace/airspace beneath) on my P's 14x12, and am not seeing much if any condensation on the clear board. I'm seeing more (but hardly a lot) on the similar boards on the wooden hives as they all process the bounty of the Ivy.

 

[oliver90owner]

What would be the problem with having the hive at (say) 10 degrees off level?

Across end to end of frames, a slight slope is no real problem, I would think, although 10 degrees can seem quite a lot (needs about 7.5 degrees slope for water droplets to 'run').

OK until bees draw comb - they draw it very plumb, so any slope across the faces of the comb would be encouraging some honeycomb sculpture.

 

[itma]

Question in relation to this thread.....a friend has a poly hive from P****S and she said she is having trouble with condensation under the clear plastic crown board they supplied with the hive.
Not knowing the hive I suggested some matchsticks ...

Another late thought on this.
You do have to take a little trouble to get the roof "snugged down" properly. It fits quite tightly onto the top hive box (basically, it seals.)
Using an empty super as a feeder eke, if I lift off the roof, the empty super comes off with it - they join together, unlike a wooden hive.

If you just set the roof approximately in place and then strap it, its very likely that the roof isn't actually fitted properly - which would, by itself give the "matchstick effect" - but over the thin coverboard, leading to lots of condensation!

So, something VERY simple to check is whether the roof is being fitted properly, or not.
Just spend two seconds giving the roof a very gentle twist before strapping the hive - the roof shouldn't turn at all without moving the box beneath!



/ And matchsticks - just don't, please.

 

[Ely]

I appreciate why some may want the convenience of a clear inner cover but actually poly hives do not need inner covers, the roof does the job perfectly well by itself. We have no inner covers whatsoever in the poly unit.

Never had a condensation issue. If that is happening it has to be a flawed design in some way...and the thin nature of the roof that some have identified is a very likely culprit (I have never actually had one of these specific boxes in my hand so cannot confirm or refute that).

The floppy plastic inner cover that comes with mine caused more harm than good. Pinging squishing and generally p*ssing of the bees, it was soon discarded.

 

[Into the lions den]

Perhaps an instruction to apply Vaseline to the mating surfaces would have dealt with the problem.
Is anything of that sort routinely used by ITLD for his cover-free poly hives?

No vaseline ever. Not at the roof/box meeting point. nor at any other point in the hive.

You do not even need a hive tool to remove the roof from a poly hive, no matter how well stuck down it is. Flush jointed that is, it can be more awkward with the half checked or lipped models.

The roof has a slight flexiblity to it. You put one hand down firmly on the roof in the centre, and the other hand gently pulls up the front or back edge. The slight flex means it just peels away with no jarring ar anything. Being stuck down a bit is actually an advantage as it reduces the risk of lids coming off in gales etc.

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Just catching up with this thread i'm using the swienty plastic cover (that roger sells on his langstroth versions that could be cutdown). The difference is its got holes every each in the entire plastic sheet, be it the swienty langstroth's do have thicker roofs I think. Not sure if that makes a difference but I certain don't get condensation on it.

As ITLD says no need to use them though, although not tried this myself yet, as its been plastic crownboard when not feeding and wooden when feeding.

 

[itma]

...You do not even need a hive tool to remove the roof from a poly hive, no matter how well stuck down it is. Flush jointed that is, it can be more awkward with the half checked or lipped models.
...

The Pains poly nuc roof has a stepped joint, and the hive roof lips tightly over the sides of the (poly) box beneath.

 

[Poly Hive]

Can we be clear what we are discussing as the designs of nucs and hives are somewhat different.

PH