Making Nucs

[Somerford]

I was just thinking , as I am wont to do now and then about Nuc making.

Although I have never tried to make any more than two nucs from a hive in one season (taking into account a prime swarm and splitting the remainder), I was wondering how many nucs you could make that would be strong enough to enter the winter months from one colony....

Lets imagine we have a strong full sized healthy colony that is doing well in April on 9 frames (or 8 maybe) after a good spring !

We could split into 4 x 2 frame nucs...which, all going well, could be on perhaps 5 or 6 frames by the September.

Is this the best one could hope for ? Does anyone have any better ideas ?


While on this subject, if one was to capture a prime swarm in May, hive it and wait for maybe 2 weeks (to allow egg laying and bees to settle in) would anyone consider splitting it into 2 ?

And finally,

what is the rate of increase, on average, for the standard British hive, all things (such as weather etc) being equal ? By this I mean if one was to have 2 frames....how long would it take to get to 3, 4 and so on ?


I look forward to reading the viewpoints !! (lets try and keep to the thread!)



regards

S

 

[BKF Admin]

Have a read of this while awaiting answers Somerford:

http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slovenia/en/yeganehrad.pdf

 

[oliver90owner]

It would depend on the season, whether you were going to feed, whether you wanted any honey,etc etc etc.

Last year that would not have been a strong colony by any means. End of April? On a double brood and sixteen(?) frames of brood available. Split into 7 small nucs, with enough warmth and feed would have been easy for you. Depending on what the later year holds in terms of weather etc you could esily make another nuc, maybe more, from what you have.

Are you expecting to be taking nucs through the winter? You don't say. If not and with a long autumn like this last year you might be uniting say a couple later, to achieve strong wintering colonies.

On the other hand, it might be an artificial swarm, split into 3, and could be about all you will be able to get. Wasps might be another limiting factor.

Have you got a crystal ball? Maybe you need to tell us how long your piece of string is!! 'Cos it might just depend on that!!

Get a life, go with the flow and tell how many you managed, come next winter.

Regards, RAB

 

[Finman]

I

April

We could split into 4 x 2 frame nucs...which, all going well, could be on perhaps 5 or 6 frames by the September.

Is this the best one could hope for
S

That is the best method to ruin a good hive and avoid honey selling.

If you wait to end June, you have 50 frames of bees and then you may split the hive into 25 nucs. If you do it before best yield, you avoid selling honey.

Everything goes well but next year comes. You have 25 profilic hives.
You must enlarge your barn, get hives boxes, get more customers, sell more honey, gather money millions that you can pay enlargening costs.

.

 

[Somerford]

It would depend on the season, whether you were going to feed, whether you wanted any honey,etc etc etc.

Last year that would not have been a strong colony by any means. End of April? On a double brood and sixteen(?) frames of brood available. Split into 7 small nucs, with enough warmth and feed would have been easy for you. Depending on what the later year holds in terms of weather etc you could esily make another nuc, maybe more, from what you have.

Are you expecting to be taking nucs through the winter? You don't say. If not and with a long autumn like this last year you might be uniting say a couple later, to achieve strong wintering colonies.

On the other hand, it might be an artificial swarm, split into 3, and could be about all you will be able to get. Wasps might be another limiting factor.

Have you got a crystal ball? Maybe you need to tell us how long your piece of string is!! 'Cos it might just depend on that!!

Get a life, go with the flow and tell how many you managed, come next winter.

Regards, RAB

Well I would hope to get them through the following winter !!

No cyrtsal balls here I'm afraid - just looking for ideas

 

[Finman]

No cyrtsal balls here I'm afraid -

Nuc making is very simple. You need not crystal balls in it. It is mere routine.
It depends why you make them and twhat is you total idea to keep bees: make honey and money, play, sell nucs...

 

[oliver90owner]

I was wondering how many nucs

That was your question, n'est pas?

But you are not clear whether you intend taking nucs through the following winter or full colonies. Subtle difference. Let us know. Just splitting a strong colony 3 ways will, or at least should, produce 3 full colonies. Splitting later can be a disaster if wasps are troublesome.

With 8 colonies your musings seem to be pretty well simply dreaming up questions just for the sake of.

In your position (8 colonies) I would be making as many nucs as I felt I needed. Anywhere from one to twenty, or more, with little problem. That would not necessarily detract from doubling the number of colonies (as well) if you were to forego a large proportion of your honey crop. You might need to draw comb with your colonies, if you do not have a surplus of brood combs available, to give all these splits a head start.

So, why not ask the question the other way round: I would like x nucs to take into the winter; how should I go about it? A much more sensible, and possibly answerable, question.

RAB

 

[jezd]

Rab, I understand what you are getting at but for me the interesting data is the timing and the size of nuc created - Finman for example seems to advocate making 2 frames nucs (I am guessing 2 frames inc. bees/brood/pollen and a frame of stores) at the end of late June, these then having time to build to strong 5 frame nucs (not nuns lol) to over winter or sell.

Assuming that basic approach then he needs to decide how many hives he wants to leave alone (taking a crop or off to the heather etc) and then the rest can be used for nuc building.

 

[Somerford]

I was wondering how many nucs

That was your question, n'est pas?

But you are not clear whether you intend taking nucs through the following winter or full colonies. Subtle difference. Let us know. Just splitting a strong colony 3 ways will, or at least should, produce 3 full colonies. Splitting later can be a disaster if wasps are troublesome.

With 8 colonies your musings seem to be pretty well simply dreaming up questions just for the sake of.

In your position (8 colonies) I would be making as many nucs as I felt I needed. Anywhere from one to twenty, or more, with little problem. That would not necessarily detract from doubling the number of colonies (as well) if you were to forego a large proportion of your honey crop. You might need to draw comb with your colonies, if you do not have a surplus of brood combs available, to give all these splits a head start.

So, why not ask the question the other way round: I would like x nucs to take into the winter; how should I go about it? A much more sensible, and possibly answerable, question.

RAB

RAB - the questions were meant to create discussion - don't be hemmed in by any quantities of nucs one is aiming for. I am interested in finding out what the maximum number of nucs people think is possible to create from a very strong colony at the start of the season (and ensure they will go into the winter in a fit state to survive)

You suggest 3 from such a starting point, although you also suggest that 20 from 8 is ok.

The question is based solely on Nuc making, not honey production. It is asking the question what in the eyes and experiences of the beekeepers here is the maximum number of nucs one could create and ensure they safely survive the following winter.

I then asked if anyone had an idea what the rate of increase across frames a nuc might see (this question has yet to be answered by anyone), indeed so too the question regarding splitting a prime/large swarm !

Let us presume then, for sake of arguement, that frames taken from the parent colony are drawn comb, with foundation placed alongside.

The point of this thread is for my own information and also for a number of newbeeks who I know are looking to increase this year over and above splitting once to prevent swarming.

Simples

regards

S

 

[Finman]

- Finman for example seems to advocate making 2 frames nucs (I am guessing 2 frames inc. bees/brood/pollen and a frame of stores) at the end of late June, these then having time to build to strong 5 frame nucs (not nuns lol) to over winter or sell..

That is a wrong quess.

I have 3 frames mating nucs. I put one frame of bees, one foundation and one food comb. Later I may add bees to the nuc. I take arvae off and put a frame of emerging bees. Soon after that I have 3 frames of brood in the nuc.

If I add hives, I make after main yield 10 frame full box hive and put an laying queen inside.

In recent years I have done one box hives from maiting nuc. When I join 3 mating nucs, I get one box full of bees and brood.

There are many ways but I never split hives in spring. Swarming time is a good splitting time. In main yield I join them to make profilic forager towers.

.

 

[Finman]

The question is based solely on Nuc making, not honey production. It is asking the question what in the eyes and experiences of the beekeepers here is the maximum number of nucs one could create and ensure they safely survive the following winter.


S

It depends the skills of the beekeeper. If he must ask these questions, I cannot promise anything good to nuc making.

New beekeepers do according their own head even if I tell what to do. Then comes from bushes guys who say that "rear your own queens. "
To get an own mating queen takes 4 week and during this time laying queen get one generation of bees and nuc will be full of new bees.


Second guy comes and says: " feed feed and feed". So nuc is full of sugar and there is no space for brood. Nuc even swarms.

I have seen this tens of times in forums.

Then we go towards winter and nuc has 3-4 occupied frames and 7 empty frames. And so on.

 

[oliver90owner]

Finman,

After the OSR there is often a shortage of forage. To encourage the queen to continue expanding the nest it may be necessary to feed thin syrup. Hives were swarming at the end of April last year. A few went the third week in April! Late, small nucs in the Uk may be attacked by the wasps early on, which can be a difficult problem. A lot lost colonies due to wasp attack last year.

My answer is now that Somerford is jousting at windmills if he thinks his thread is of any use to a new beek with one hive who wishes to expand. Walk before you can run is my advice to all those. Expansion from one to three hives is enough for a new beek, or he/she will likely run into trouble. Taking nucs through the winter is not exactly easy for a new beek either.
Somerford,

You suggest 3 from such a starting point

No, I didn't. I said you should be able to get three good full colonies to go into the winter from one strong hive.

Come on now, most new beeks won't really know how to really classify their one hive, will tend to be over-enthusiastic and have a much greater chance of losing nucs in the winter, than more experienced beeks.

My advice to new beeks is split 3 ways, at early swarming time, leaving a strong colony to collect some honey and expect to unite the other two later in the season. Getting 3 strong ones for winter is a bonus.

I know I tried to get too many extras in my first year and was back where I started by the next season. Make haste slowly is my advice. Buying in queens is definitely a better way to go (at least faster) but supercedure can be a pain later in the season - especially for a new beek with weak colonies (still building up)

Don't ever make things 'simples' for new beeks. It can be, if it works, and it can work out as a right disaster.

So my advice (to the newer beeks with one colony) is bait hives (if you were to be confident of unknown bees health-wise) split your hive and be prepared to unite later. Assuming one finishes with 4 colonies in a good year is more than enough for most new beeks. Three good colonies is a good result and two extremely strong colonies (after uniting) would still be a good positive experience.

Regards, RAB

 

[Somerford]

any more for any more ?

 

[Poly Hive]

From the UK perspective you mean Somerford?

PH

 

[Somerford]

well, seeing as we are an international forum, anything goes, but best to indicate which region you are writing from for future reference ?

regards

S

 

[Poly Hive]

There is no answer to this question as there are so many factors involved.

The skill of the beekeeper. Weather, finance, location, to name but a few.

PH

 

[Finman]

What to teach to beginners ? The biggest problem is that the beginner has no experience how the colony grow and expand in spring.
He is not able to anticipate what he is doing. He do not know how to get the colony grow and when to add more room. Small are difficult and a big take care itself.

Final nail is when rape starts to bloom and tiny hive/nuc is full of nectar in one week. Then swarm leaves without warning. You miss the laying queen when it ought to lay for main yield. Fogagers are gone.

I have read many times when the beginner starts every year from beginning and in autumn he has 4 occupied frames of bees.
In USA they feed syrup and get small nucs to swarm up to sky's blue.

As it was written, nothing is simple to beginner. Split split split, fee feed feed, shake shake shake. So many teachers and they are at same skill level.

One problem is how to get drawed combs in spring. You have 3 nucs over winter and then you should expand you hives. feed feed feed is the answer. And so it goes.

Run first before your walk. I have seen them many and then they give up.

*******

That happens to me every year. Why not to beginners. No time to get bored.
.

 

[Somerford]

good points there Finman.....something to bare in mind if your are (un)lucky enough to be close to OSR

regards

S

 

[MJBee]

I think that providing you have/can afford the extra equipment it is realistic to double the number of colonies in one season BUT only 1 to 2 and 2 to 4 for a beginner and buying in queens.

Increasing into double figures and raising queens to head the colonies IMHO requires experience, knowledge and luck