Loads of sealed QCs

[bpmurray]

I split my 2 hives last Friday when I found a few QCs in each using artificial swarm. The "swarmed" hives are doing fine - comb drawn out well, but not much stores so I'm feeding 1:1 syrup. However in one of the original hives, I have 16 sealed QCs and in the other 8, some of which are emergency even though they had fine swarm cells. What should I do with them? Tear down all but one? Or two? Use some of the cells in apideas?

 

[Swarm]

I'd leave well alone, they are sealed and you have no idea what they contain.

 

[enrico]

I would leave two, I would see what was in the ones I was destroying!
E

 

[beeno]

Hi murray,
Well, I reckon all your QCs contain potential queens. I would take my chances and reduce to one primary cell and remove all the emergency cells. Pick the one they show interest in. Whilst you are at it you may as well do a couple of apideas with spare primary cells. Always handy to have a couple of spare queens. When you remove the queen to go into the AS they always make some emergency QC - sudden loss of queen substance. Nice weather coming up and plenty of forage, in my locale anyway, would make a strong colony swarm for sure. Look out for QC with a hinged lid or nice round open hole as you may have a virgin in there! Listen out for piping. Well, done with the AS part which is usually the more troublesome part. Good luck and enjoy.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So....when you did the AS did you choose an open cell for the bees to raise and mark the frame?

 

[bpmurray]

So....when you did the AS did you choose an open cell for the bees to raise and mark the frame?

Unfortunately I was about to travel to Prague on business so it was a rather panicked affair. I saw big & small QCs with larvae & royal jelly - I suppose I should have broken down all except the target one, but I didn't and I've arrived back and they're all sealed, including another bunch of new unexpected emergency cells.

So now I have advice to not touch anything since I don't know what's int he cells, and advice to clear all except one or two. I think I'll get rid of the emergency cells and check later in the week for opened QCs.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Unless you went back into both hives a few days after the initial A/S and:
in the Q+ hive knock down all and every QC
In the Q- side knock down all but the cell you selected to keep the first time.

You were almost bound to find at least emergency cells in the Q- side
as EricaH said - if you marked the position of a.
QC in the Q- box first time around, keep that one and knock down the rest
If not, and all cells are now sealed it is wise to keep two good ones and get rid the rest just in case one's a dud as you've never seen inside - the bees will sort them out come emergence time.
It it very unwise advice to tell someone to knock down all but one.

 

[pargyle]

Hi murray,
Well, I reckon all your QCs contain potential queens. I would take my chances and reduce to one primary cell and remove all the emergency cells. Pick the one they show interest in. Whilst you are at it you may as well do a couple of apideas with spare primary cells. Always handy to have a couple of spare queens. When you remove the queen to go into the AS they always make some emergency QC - sudden loss of queen substance. Nice weather coming up and plenty of forage, in my locale anyway, would make a strong colony swarm for sure. Look out for QC with a hinged lid or nice round open hole as you may have a virgin in there! Listen out for piping. Well, done with the AS part which is usually the more troublesome part. Good luck and enjoy.

Not a good idea ... always leave two in case one is a dud ...

 

[Thymallus]

However in one of the original hives, I have 16 sealed QCs and in the other 8, some of which are emergency even though they had fine swarm cells. What should I do with them? Tear down all but one? Or two? Use some of the cells in apideas?

I know circumstances dictate what you can do. But on the assumption the original queen is of swarmy stock. I'd tear the lot down and re-queen or add frame with eggs from a non smarmy stock.....assuming that is possible. By perpetuating swarmy bees you condemn yourself to running round trying to stop them on an annual basis. Good for beekeeping experience, but bad for gathering honey.
However, if they aren't of swarmy stock you are back to Q cell tearing down. Personally I'd leave three, to be sure to be sure to be sure.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I'd leave well alone, they are sealed and you have no idea what they contain.

Doesn't seem a good idea to leave that lot to create swarms and casts to me but what do I know

 

[masterBK]

Can't agree with Pargyle. Never wise to leave two cells especially if you haven't carried out Heddon modification to your AS (to shunt off more flyers about 5 or 6 days later) as the original colony if strong enough is likely to cast with first queen out. Beeno has right idea. If you are worried about a dud then take a nucleus with the other one.

Another (although not very likely) risk of leaving two cells of same age is that both emerge from their cells within the same time slot and fight leaving the winner with injuries to wings, antennae or feet missing.

 

[bpmurray]

I actually plan on moving the hives to a new apiary today - having 2 hives in the bottom of the garden is OK, but 4 is a bit much. That'll reduce the number of flyers (hopefully not too much). I'll keep 2 or 3 of the best original swarm cells, perhaps in apideas just in case. Since I saw the QCs with royal jelly on the 30/04, the eggs probably hatched around 28/04 and were sealed on 3rd May. That would mean that they'll hatch tomorrow although I could be a day off either way. I think I better check that they're all still sealed before moving!

 

[pargyle]

Can't agree with Pargyle. Never wise to leave two cells especially if you haven't carried out Heddon modification to your AS (to shunt off more flyers about 5 or 6 days later) as the original colony if strong enough is likely to cast with first queen out. Beeno has right idea. If you are worried about a dud then take a nucleus with the other one.

Another (although not very likely) risk of leaving two cells of same age is that both emerge from their cells within the same time slot and fight leaving the winner with injuries to wings, antennae or feet missing.

In certain circumstances I would agree with you ... but when all the queen cells are sealed and you haven't seen the build up (as in the OP) and he only has two hives, both of which have just been split, leaving just one queen cell does present the risk that, if you lose that one or it's a dud ... you are really struggling for another queen until your AS gets up and running.

Personally, I would have chucked a frame with queen cells, some stores and a few bees into a Nuc as an insurance policy.

Reading comments from other posters it appears that both you and Beeno are out of step with most of the thinking ....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Reading comments from other posters it appears that both you and Beeno are out of step with most of the thinking ....

but what do I know I haven't done a 'module' or anything as important as that.

Free the forum one I say!​

 

[midnight sun]

Free the forum one I say!​

Release the Kraken!....sorry...got carried away!

 

[itma]

Since there are many QCs, there needs to be a reduction.

Ideally, you'd have reduced to one QC at the time of doing the A/S.
And from the open ones, you'd have selected the biggest and wettest one at that point, and marked the frame it is on, culling the others. You'd have brushed off that marked frame to make sure there was only the one you were choosing to leave on that frame - and you'd have shaken all the other frames to be sure spotting and culling absolutely all the other (swarm) QC's.
AND you'd have gone in 5/7 days later to check that your chosen cell was looking sealed and viable before repeating the brushing & shaking to remove (any/all) additional emergency cells.


However, you didn't and now have lots of sealed QCs ...
Personally, in that situation I'd reduce to two.
BUT I'd choose two really big ones, either on the same comb face, or I'd rearrange the frames so they were facing each other.
Choosing two to maximise your chances of getting a Q emerge. And arranging things so that the first girl out has the best possible opportunity of swiftly dealing with the potential rival.
There is a very slight risk of losing a cast, but you are increasing your chance of getting a new Q.
Its a judgement call, and others might call it differently.
However, that call is only needed because of the earlier omissions. Better to select your chosen single QC when it is still open.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Choosing two to maximise your chances of getting a Q emerge. And arranging things so that the first girl out has the best possible opportunity of swiftly dealing with the potential rival.

There is also quite a bit of evidence around now that says the bees will ensure both queens don't damage the other if they emerge at the same time, the warder bees will keep at least one confined so the other can deal with her or 'rig' the fight so their chosen queen wins.

 

[itma]

There is also quite a bit of evidence around now that says the bees will ensure both queens don't damage the other if they emerge at the same time, the warder bees will keep at least one confined so the other can deal with her or 'rig' the fight so their chosen queen wins.

That seems to be the way that casts can happen at all.

Q1 would like to deal with Q2 etc ASAP. Only if she is prevented (by the workers) from doing her instinctive priority job of killing all rivals, can any cast ever issue forth.
The more workers, the easier they can protect other Q(s). Eventually after lots of casts there are too few workers left to protect any remaining QCs, and casting stops.
However, the closer together the only QCs are within the hive, the easier it is for Q1 to locate and destroy Q2, and the harder it is for workers to keep her away from Q2 in another part of the brood area.

Hence, if choosing to leave two QCs to double the chances of one emerging, it makes great sense, to me, to ensure that they are as close together as possible.


Incidentally, I don't worry overmuch about the possibility of a 'winner' emerging damaged. After all, this Q/Q struggle is part of the wholly natural behaviour. It is something Qs are supposed to do!