Laying workers

[Debbie B]

I posted a while ago because the queen in my very first colony of bees went missing. They seemed to be making a new one so, under the advice I received on here, from my course leader and from the supplier, I left them for a couple of weeks. When we reopened there were eggs but some cells had more than one. We left it for another week hoping it was a new queen and by the time we came again we'd be seeing a normal brood pattern. We returned yesterday and it is obvious we have laying workers. I am absolutely gutted.
Can you tell me, is it absolutely hopeless bearing in mind I have no spare frames of brood as this is my only hive. I have read conflicting opinions about shaking off the house bees far from the colony and then introducing a new queen. Is trying that my only option other than starting from scratch.
Thanks in advance.

 

[madasafish]

Your only hope:
introduce 1 or preferably two frames of brood , eggs and larvae.
After a week , a laying queen in a cage..Leave in for 3-4 days at least.. gives workers chance of adapt to queen phemerones w/o killing her.
(been there successfully)

Shaking the bees out is a waste of time: laying workers fly back...(been there).

 

[Debbie B]

Can I buy two frames of brood from a supplier as I don't have any other hives?

 

[Murox]

I posted a while ago because the queen in my very first colony of bees went missing. They seemed to be making a new one so, under the advice I received on here, from my course leader and from the supplier, I left them for a couple of weeks. When we reopened there were eggs but some cells had more than one. We left it for another week hoping it was a new queen and by the time we came again we'd be seeing a normal brood pattern. We returned yesterday and it is obvious we have laying workers. I am absolutely gutted.
Can you tell me, is it absolutely hopeless bearing in mind I have no spare frames of brood as this is my only hive. I have read conflicting opinions about shaking off the house bees far from the colony and then introducing a new queen. Is trying that my only option other than starting from scratch.
Thanks in advance.

You can install a new adult queen but laying workers will often not accept a new queen easily, so the new queen is killed. Or you allow the bees to make their own queen from young brood taken from a queen-right colony.

Dumping the bees a couple of hundred yards away and sweeping all bees off the frames to get rid of the small laying workers and introducing a new queen to the returning bees does not always work on its own , you really do need some open worker brood as well.

I think the surest way to save your hive would be to introduce a frame of open worker brood every few days until the bees begin to raise a supersedure queen.
In the situation you have described I expect your course leader and the supplier will help with the solution. Wish you good luck.

 

[eltalia]

Yes well Debbie, you yourself are not alone in taking on advice as to
how to rectify "hopelessly queenless"... the misinformation is globally endemic.
It may well now be too late to bring your colony back, this is Fact.
Buuut IF you have access within a few days to a proven laying queen AND there
are stores remaining in the hive AND the bees remaining are above 5,000 in
number..?.. I do own a pretty much 100% successfull ER method.
Be aware what I would put to you is only Survival, no way in the UK could
You expect anymore than that in 2019.
My commisserations on your loss.

Bill

 

[enrico]

Oh Debbie. It happens! So sorry it has happened in your first year though. I would start again! It will be much less hassle. If you had other hives you stood a chance of survival but a loan hive? Hardly any!
E

 

[Millet]

It is a shame you only have one colony..I have had three laying worker colonies and they all got shook out in the end..not without trying frames of eggs from my other colonies first..I even introduced a mated Queen one year with the fondant plug left intact for three days..a week later I found the Queen dead on the ground outside the hive..
From now on I personally will not mess about with laying worker colonies anymore..any I see in the future will be shook out in the middle of the apiary..that is one of many reasons several hives come in handy for many reasons..
Good luck with yours.

 

[Millet]

Oh Debbie. It happens! So sorry it has happened in your first year though. I would start again! It will be much less hassle. If you had other hives you stood a chance of survival but a loan hive? Hardly any!
E

+1

 

[Debbie B]

I could buy a laying queen and the bees have stores in the brood box. As for the number of bees, when we opened yesterday the brood box was pretty full and it was a lovely sunny day so lots were out foraging. Does that sound like 5000? What is your plan Bill?

 

[Millet]

I could buy a laying queen and the bees have stores in the brood box. As for the number of bees, when we opened yesterday the brood box was pretty full and it was a lovely sunny day so lots were out foraging. Does that sound like 5000? What is your plan Bill?

It is a big gamble trying to re Queen a laying worker colony.

 

[Debbie B]

That's what I'm thinking. I'm going to waste time and money trying something that is probably not going to work.
It's been a baptism of fire!

 

[madasafish]

It is a big gamble trying to re Queen a laying worker colony.

I have done it successfully. I introduced a new queen plus 3 frames of brood - from a 5 frame mini nuc plus stores into another brood box, and united on top of the laying workers box. With 5-6 sheets newspaper scored through..and lots of smoke. (the mini nuc frames were cable tied into normal frames of drawn out foundation. - job took under 30 minutes)

Left for a week.. the bees gradually cut through the paper and the scents mixed and the laying workers colony had workers which stopped laying..

If I were nearer I would offer to do it..


BUT I am not, so my best advice is to find another kind beekeeper with lots of bees and ask for a couple of frames..of brood and eggs (not diseased of course.. trite I know)

or buy more bees.. or get a swarm - lots available I believe..

 

[GuyNir]

Buy a nuc and a queen.

- You really need more than one colony (your case is one example)
- Use a brood frame (or two if strong) from the nuc to fix the laying worker issue, together with a new queen.

I had success uniting laying worker colonies with queen right colonies. So you can also try buying a nuc and unit, then split once back normal and expanding.

 

[viridens]

Debbie
Your first post in the thread mentions your course leader. Is it possible that they could help you or put you in touch with someone who can?

 

[Debbie B]

Ooo a swarm could work. Thanks ��

 

[Smudger55]

I have the same ( laying workers)

If I shake bees out , will they try and get into other hives in the same apiary and kill the queens in the other hives or are they not allowed into the hives by the guard bees? As I have a hive in the same condition....

 

[Swarm]

If I shake bees out , will they try and get into other hives in the same apiary and kill the queens in the other hives or are they not allowed into the hives by the guard bees? As I have a hive in the same condition....

Not a problem.

 

[eltalia]

I could buy a laying queen and the bees have stores in the brood box. As for the number of bees, when we opened yesterday the brood box was pretty full and it was a lovely sunny day so lots were out foraging. Does that sound like 5000? What is your plan Bill?

Given all other information you've posted (Debbie) it's worth a shot at saving.
The key is to achieve in quick time two elements of conversion.
Confuse the LWs as to whom is who.
Switch off the LW syndrome through extinguishing that phereomone.
There exist a couple of methods of achieving these, none of which
are mentioned thusfar.
Following is our (local) preferred method.
Take a laying queen on a frame of older capped brood, with bees -
best option, but can be done with a delivered queen and attendants
only.
At least 2metres away set a box on a bottomboard, add to it 1 frame
of stores - plus the frame the queen came with, if so. Fit a divider board
after - one owning a 100×100mm penetration covered with 2 layers of
newsprint. The divider board needs to fit loosely yet not allow any bees
passage, ventilation space only. A cover board over is also required, can
be anything bees cannot chew through easily.
Add your queen and close up the section.
Move that box to where the LW colony sits and remove all frames from
the LW box, dumping those bees into the space after divider.
Place lid on and take LW box and frames for storage.
Maybe every second day open the box and remove any comb built.
The acceptance should take no more than 72hours after which the frames
stored can be added back.
You can expect some bearding where numbers are sufficient to build
comb fast so be vigilent and remove comb as they build it.

The queen laying sets up an opposing phereomone which initially
the LWs will try to subvert. As they cannot get to her AND they have
nowhere to maintain their phereomone the LW syndrome is switched
off.
Simple enough solution however only viable where LW syndrome is
relatively recent as bees are still of a viable age. Where bees have
dropped in numbers through old age the remainder are not worth
the effort as they'll be dead before any new brood emerges.
Clear?

Bill

 

[madasafish]

If you do decide to shake them out in to a hedge, then do it about 50 yards away and not in the apiary itself otherwise there will be bees everywhere and upset for days.

I once did this years ago when I didn’t know any better and lost two nucs to intruders robbing them out. There was fighting everywhere as large clumps of bees descended on to each hive and it took days for things to settle down.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44809

 

[Debbie B]

Sounds interesting Bill. How old is old?