Langstroth question from 100% national user

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beeboybee

Field Bee
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
752
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15
Location
QUANTOCKS - SOMERSET
Hive Type
14x12
Number of Hives
6 >12 - 14x12 + Nucs
Had a look today at a friends langstroth set up, they are just starting, they have some frames with eyelet holes, that need foundation, the foundation is already wired, Any top tips on wiring the frames as I am only used to using National stuff so have never had to get frames wired..... Seems a hassle compared to national stuff?



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Don't need any if the foundation is already wired.

Adding extra wires might be good on the jumbo frames, but anything shorter is not much different to Nationals in area
 
I use jumbo lang and lang(deep) but only double wire the jumbo. When double wiring I make sure the frame wire is tight and melt the wired foundation onto it. This locks it up nice and strong. A tip when melting it on is to make sure that the wire in the foundation is facing up away from the frame wires. This allows it to bed in more.
 
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How do you get the wax nice and flat, without the grooves on the end bars like national?


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How do you get the wax nice and flat, without the grooves on the end bars like national?


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Before I lost the plot and was convinced to use Nationals,....
a bit of board cut to fit snugly inside the frame .. and a hair drier,
but I am sure we had groves in the Lang frames... and eyelets?
 
How do you get the wax nice and flat, without the grooves on the end bars like national?

The foundation is held in place by the wires, it doesn't fall out.

The bees attach it to the side bars.
 
Try two gimp pins either side of wired wax sheets or have a pot of wax on the hot plate and paint or dribble melted wax along the wired wax sheet /frame side

One reason why I don't like langstroths, as a student i had a job making then up///6 volt VW car battery not a 12volt to heat the frame wires when using non wired...wasn't i glad when we changed to SN5 wired ....but saying that, lots of commercial ops use unwired to say the 15p per sheet
 
Some users of Langs use fishing line in an 'X' configuration with one line on each face of the foundation.
 
Had a look today at a friends langstroth set up, they are just starting, they have some frames with eyelet holes, that need foundation, the foundation is already wired, Any top tips on wiring the frames as I am only used to using National stuff so have never had to get frames wired..... Seems a hassle compared to national stuff?



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You need a way of holding the frame steady whilst threading, taking up the slack and partially tensioning the wire.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCXwi_ZFzvM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCXwi_ZFzvM[/ame]

With the frame wired you then need a crimping tool to tauten the wire and a means of embedding it in the foundation. I use an electric embedder which allows you to heat the wires enough to cause them to sink into the wax. After the initial cost of setup it is easier, more cost effective and produces more uniformly flat combs than prewired.
 
One reason why I don't like langstroths, as a student i had a job making then up///6 volt VW car battery not a 12volt to heat the frame wires when using non wired...wasn't i glad when we changed to SN5 wired ....but saying that, lots of commercial ops use unwired to say the 15p per sheet

LOL.....if it were only for the 15p a sheet on the foundation we wouldnt bother...............but

Firstly you can use the cheaper foundation as regards the wiring cost.

Secondly there is zero woodwork to do when rewaxing. No wedge to remove, clean, and renail for example. (Some might look puzzled at that but you do NOT nail the wedge tightto the foundation, leaving a big enough gap to slip the next wax sheet in, or never remove the wedge at all innew frames leaving it just where it is in the manufacture process.)

Then you can do what makes the flattest strongest brood combs as well, leaving the foundation a couple of cells short of the bottom bars. Sounds counterintuitive to many, but it really works. You get no sugging or bulging as often happens with full sheet wired foundation right inot the bottom bars. The bees often attach the wax to the bottom bars first and then you get a little bit of 'bellying' especially in zig zag pattern wired foundation in the gaps betweem wires. When the bees join it on themselves it is stronger and flatter.

You can remove old comb by either steaming or boiling or simply sliding a knife along the wires, then steam or boil the frames themselves, or even hand scrape ( slow).

Then the best bit. Once the frames are ready for rewaxing it takes approx 4 to 5 mins per box to do (once you get the knack). (We use battery chargers, not actual batteries) The BS deep ones with grooves etc and wired foundation take nearly 20 mins per box, although it IS 11 frames as opposed to 10. We are close to completion of the drilling eyeletting and cross wiring of ALL our BS frames as well as, although it is a serious 'up front' cost it makes the next rewaxing SO much faster and easier. Its the difference between being able to cope with large annual comb renewal programmes and not being able to.

In the end, costing everything out including the work, the saving is actually huge. It works out at about 5.50 a box per rewax. Our onging rewax programme and repalcement of damaged or defectives runs now at about 3000 boxes a year. Big saving, massive time advantage in scheduling.

We have never found simple wired foundation alone to be anywhere near strong enough in Lang deeps to withstand the rigours of anything other than tediously slow working and the avoidance of handling the combs when newly drawn and warm. Again, whilst fresh and white they were very difficult to extract without a very high damage rate, and they rarely were flat enough anyway. They are essentially designed for pre wired working. (British variants apart, which are not quite international standard and have weak lugs.)

On the other hand................the slow ways can have their advantage. They can mean you are far too busy in the bee shed when other less palatable tasks are being foisted upon you..............like its your turn to do the vaccuuming, or that trip to Ikea..............
 
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With the frame wired you then need a crimping tool to tauten the wire and a means of embedding it in the foundation.

We never use a crimping tool. The wires should be taught enough using that style of wiring board (we have our own home made variants of the Canadian wiring board with the cam to squeeze the side bars in) as once you string it hand taught, then secure it, when the frame springs back the wires should be very tight.

On rewaxing we check if they are still tight enough and if not re-tension using a drawing pin to divert the wire on the face of the sidebar. Very fast indeed.


BUT

Frame wire is a very variable beast, and some NEED to use the crimper as the grade they are using is stretchy. We use a relatively expensive high tensile grade of stainless steel to avoid this as it stretches far less in use. Down side it is it hard and springy, and not actually responsive to the crimping tool.

So many variations in this world!

ps.....relatively expensive actually means an increased investment at set up of about 3p a frame, but it seems to at least double the life of the wiring.
 
very interesting ILTD

it is a long time ago when i did it as a student....3s/11d per hour and it was only new frames not renewals...
 
Just remebered a tip from the USA for using foundation without cross wires in Lang frames. They use things called 'bobee pins'..............in my youth they were called a kirby grip or hair clip.

You snip the extreme ends (just the flared bit) off and push the pins through the drilled holes, and the wide end jams in the hole and will not pass through. The grips then are used to hold the foundation in place by inserting the sheet between the two legs of the pin.

Never done it, but seen it done.
 
.........
Then you can do what makes the flattest strongest brood combs as well, leaving the foundation a couple of cells short of the bottom bars. Sounds counterintuitive to many, but it really works. You get no sugging or bulging as often happens with full sheet wired foundation right inot the bottom bars. The bees often attach the wax to the bottom bars first and then you get a little bit of 'bellying' especially in zig zag pattern wired foundation in the gaps betweem wires. When the bees join it on themselves it is stronger and flatter.
.......

I also leave it around 5mm short at the sides. With properly tensioned and spaced wire the foundation doesn't need to touch the woodwork at all and a lot of the continental frames don't have a groove in the top bar anyway. My impression is that one of the reasons for the gap is that with the change in temperature in the hive the wax expands and if the foundation is tightly fitting this causes the buckling, particularly with untensioned wiring.
 
I also leave it around 5mm short at the sides. With properly tensioned and spaced wire the foundation doesn't need to touch the woodwork at all and a lot of the continental frames don't have a groove in the top bar anyway.
My impression is that one of the reasons for the gap is that with the change in temperature in the hive the wax expands and if the foundation is tightly fitting this causes the buckling, particularly with untensioned wiring.

:iagree:
I leave a gap of 3or 4mm to the bottom and the side bars, and up to 20mm to the top bar. The wire sections are heated one at a time for only 2 or 3 seconds and sink into the wax under full control.

Regards
Reiner

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