Is this a swarm or are there just too many bees for the entrance/hive?

[Norvic_chris]

What is going on?!

I have a host of bees trying to get into one of my hives from the back -- where there is no entrance. Many of them are laden with pollen and don't seem to be robbers as they're gathering there almost as a swarm (see the picture).

This is an odd hive -- the super is full of wild comb (my mistake earlier in the year) but I have trapped the queen in the brood box, below the QEx, and all the brood is in the BB. They are at the end of a period of thymol treatment (thymovar) and the inspection floor is in. I reduced the entrance to 1-2 bee spaces wide a few weeks ago when wasps started appearing. Other hives seem normal apart from very intense activity (ivy).

There has been a small group of bees (a cupful) staying outside one of the hives for some time now, even in the rain, but this is on a new scale. I'm tempted to imagine it's a swarm but there were no Q cells when last inspected (but I haven't checked very recently as I was winding down for the winter).

I simply want to get in and remove the old thymovar and the QEx for the winter and leave well alone but with so many bees on the outside (and especially if they're not from this hive) it seems just too daunting. Any thoughts/advice?

 

[enrico]

What's that on the top? Looks like a small nuc! Any chance they have outgrown the box or something? All I can suggest is that maybe the queen has wandered underneath. If you brush them all onto a sheet and put the sheet on top of a sloping piece of wood up to the front of the hive, if they cam from that hive, they will probably all go back in again. I feel certain it is to do with that nuc or a wandering queen!
E

 

[Stickyfingers]

I have the same thing with all of my hives! No Queen cells but not enough space and continued warm weather there still expanding. There now hanging outside. I added a super to one and its more or less full in less than a week. Ivy is in full flow.

I reckon I got another month of chaos down here and I reckon I'm gonna see a few QC's this week.

Bring on the frost!

 

[itma]

What's that on the top? Looks like a small nuc! Any chance they have outgrown the box or something? All I can suggest is that maybe the queen has wandered underneath. If you brush them all onto a sheet and put the sheet on top of a sloping piece of wood up to the front of the hive, if they cam from that hive, they will probably all go back in again. I feel certain it is to do with that nuc or a wandering queen!
E

Quite possible.

Are we looking at the *back* of the 'bearded' hive? (Looks like the tray access of the other hive is on show.) Which would indicate that this lot is also (maybe mainly) under the hive …

 

[oliver90owner]

NOT if they are on the back of the hive - unless there is access to the OMFat the back side, of course. Take a detailed look. The problem will be a simple one, almost for certain.

 

[Cazza]

I simply want to get in and remove the old thymovar and the QEx for the winter and leave well alone but with so many bees on the outside (and especially if they're not from this hive) it seems just too daunting. Any thoughts/advice?

I can't see why you can't just get on and do the job. It's not going to take more than as few minutes.
The bees will hardly notice if you have worked out your movements before hand and have everything ready. Try not to be daunted.
Cazza

 

[itma]

Yes it is the back of the hive! Doh!!

I have a host of bees trying to get into one of my hives from the back -- where there is no entrance.

NOT if they are on the back of the hive - unless there is access to the OMFat the back side, of course.

That's what I was suspecting.

One suggestion would be to treat as though a Queenright swarm, and dump ALL the hanging bees into a nuc (with a little stores to just tide them over until you can check again).
If they don't have a Q in the nuc, they'll go back to her, wherever else she might be.


If that really is an in-use mating nuc up top, one other possibility might be that newQ didn't make it back to the right home after going out looking for some nice drones. A case of nearly, but not quite.

 

[Norvic_chris]

Thanks all:

Enrico, yes, it's a small nuc but I only put it there (empty) a couple of days ago when the cluster was small with the thought that if it was a small swarm they might wander in and take refuge (a lazy swarm catching technique!). Some have gone in there but clearly there's not enough room for all of them, so the nuc is a red-herring (so to speak), sorry for not pointing it out.

itma, the 'tray' at the back of the other hive on show is actually just some polystyrene that I used to keep the inspection tray tightly in place while treating with thymol. No other bees under or on the sides of the other hives (which is why this one is unusual).

Stickyfingers, that may be the problem; perhaps it is as simple as too many bees for the space provided and the ivy is in full and smelly flow. I'm loathe to put on another super for them as they've been very naughty girls...

Cazza, of course I should! But try as I may, being daunted is still something I excel at!

O90O, yes, on the hive in question, there is a small gap under the inspection tray, allowing limited access to the OMF. So, could that mean they're trying to get in that way? I checked this evening while feeding the other colonies and, even though dark, they are still clustered all the way up the back of the hive.

 

[Norvic_chris]

itma: just crossed posts with yours. Thank you. Yes, that seems a sound idea. If I can get them off the hive and into a nuc. If there's a Q, then that's sorted, if not then, as you say, they'll go back 'home'. And I can sort out the hive while doing it, which means I may be less daunted! Now the problem is trying to get home from work before dark...

 

[Tom Bick]

If it’s one of the not fit for purpose floors from Thorns and the op used the drawing pins provided to hold the mesh in place then perhaps they have broken creating an entrance as most do after a few months.

 

[itma]

If it’s one of the not fit for purpose floors from Thorns and the op used the drawing pins provided to hold the mesh in place then perhaps they have broken creating an entrance as most do after a few months.

Indeed a possibility, but not of itself explaining the bearding?

 

[Norvic_chris]

If it’s one of the not fit for purpose floors from Thorns and the op used the drawing pins provided to hold the mesh in place then perhaps they have broken creating an entrance as most do after a few months.

If it helps, yes it was one of the Thorns budget floors but I soon fixed the drawing pin problem with a staple gun and, unless it's broken since (and I will check), it's pretty secure.

 

[Tom Bick]

If it helps, yes it was one of the Thorns budget floors but I soon fixed the drawing pin problem with a staple gun and, unless it's broken since (and I will check), it's pretty secure.

Yes worth a look. I was called last week with someone in a similar situation, they described this football cluster of bees on the hive with a big roaring coming from within. The hive was on solid floor, no treatments and very strong, obviously working ivy or something else and fanning like mad with a good amount of the bees decamped to the outside of the hive. Not saying this is the same with your hive but if it is a swarm I would think the bees with pollen are a bit odd unless it's been there a few days and they have built comb. Interesting all the same.

 

[Norvic_chris]

Yes, that's a point - the bees with pollen are odd for a swarm. Didn't see any comb built underneath but it was getting dark by the time I checked, so who knows. I'm guessing that if they're not a swarm and simply 'overspill' from the hive, then perhaps a slightly larger entrance and an extra super would sort things out after I've collected them into a nuc just to get them out of the way and be sure there's no queen hiding amongst them. Bees, eh? I should have stuck to gardening or brewing.

 

[beeno]

It may be as simple as too small entrance in the middle of Ivy flow. What's the situation at the entrance? Bees go very scatty if they cannot get in quickly enough especially if there are predators about.

 

[Norvic_chris]

Yes, there's a huge amount of 'scatty' activity. Bees literally flinging themselves out of the entrance! And there's a significant queue to get in but very small compared to the congregation at the back. I've got a list, now, of things to try -- presuming the weather doesn't change over the next few days...

 

[mikeyboy]

My bees did the same thing as this when I put a treatment of apiguard in and put the inspection board in to count mite drop. I have since removed the inspection board and the bees are now back to normal. Might be due to fumes given from the treatment with very little ventilation.

 

[oliver90owner]

have since removed the inspection board-

And seriously reduced the efficacy of the treatment at the same time. They don't recommend a closed floof and reduced entrance for no good reason! Thymol vapour is far more dense than air.

 

[enrico]

My bees did the same thing as this when I put a treatment of apiguard in and put the inspection board in to count mite drop. I have since removed the inspection board and the bees are now back to normal. Might be due to fumes given from the treatment with very little ventilation.

I think you will find that's how it works mikey, fumes with little ventilation!
E

 

[Fatbee]

It seems to be a recurring theme people giving treatments then removing or stopping or adapting them because the bees appear stressed or bearding out the front. Unfortunately these treatments will cause short term stress - they are stinky chemicals after all but you have to go with approved products instructions for them to effective. Little point in using them otherwise.