I'm going to be lined up and shot.......

[MartinL]

42

Yeghes da

MM some Deep Thought went into that one!

 

[mbc]

Unfortunately you get it every time AMM are mentioned

It's important to fight your corner if you go against every BKA in the land and decide to push imported buckfasts

 

[Beefriendly]

It's important to fight your corner if you go against every BKA in the land and decide to push imported buckfasts

I think reasoned discussion would be more welcome than fighting ones corner.
As someone who keeps Amm's, Amm F1's, local bees, Buckfast, Buckfast F1's and Carniolans in my apiaries I have first hand experience of how all these different strains perform in my little ecological niche.
They all have their place and one should show some respect for another's choice of bees. If people were a little more open about their choice's good and bad points it would make everyone's life a lot easier.

 

[REDWOOD]

I think reasoned discussion would be more welcome than fighting ones corner.
As someone who keeps Amm's, Amm F1's, local bees, Buckfast, Buckfast F1's and Carniolans in my apiaries I have first hand experience of how all these different strains perform in my little ecological niche.
They all have their place and one should show some respect for another's choice of bees. If people were a little more open about their choice's good and bad points it would make everyone's life a lot easier.

Well said

I love having the different types of bees it makes beekeeping more interesting. I have had defensive black bees and orange stripy ones too. It goes with the territory and learning to deal with such colonies makes you a better beekeeper.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Well said

I love having the different types of bees it makes beekeeping more interesting. I have had defensive black bees and orange stripy ones too. It goes with the territory and learning to deal with such colonies makes you a better beekeeper.

I agree, there is enough room for everybody here and with goodwill many types of bees might be kept. Many beekeepers have fallen victim to propaganda and hidden agendas, which has led to the sorry state we are in today. Threats and attacks against the person, beehives destroyed and the native honeybee society manoeuvring to exploit any weaknesses in organised beekeeping here. Not a situation of which we can be proud.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

This is Trump-like in its veracity. NIHBS is supporting PhD students, not doing research themselves directly, and if you want publications you'll have to wait until the students are ready. Their results are very clear and nothing like the statement above.

"Sturgeon-like" would be a real cause for worry! I see that Norman Tebbit does not share the sense of loss some (not all) members of NIHBS are feeling today. I share the view that the AMM found in Ireland today are descended from AMM imported from the Continent in the wake of the IOW disease. DNA tests would show if this is the case or not, these results were promised years ago, but to date nothing has appeared.

 

[Uncle Betty]

At least that's what seems to happen to anyone here in Ireland who is bold enough to countenance crossing over to the dark (buckfast) side........

I'm sure you'll all understand that 'asking around locally' isn't a particularly attractive proposition.......

Such drama.

It's a bit odd for a beginner to paint such a hostile picture of beekeeping in your district, and then to go straight for the import option. It's almost like a justification.

You could have as easily researched 're-queening an aggressive colony', for example.

Why not just get a local queen from a local beekeeper, and enjoy learning the finer points of queen introduction ? That should plenty to be going on with for a relative beginner.

And possibly some focus on your colony-handling too, which could be a contributory factor to your miserable experience so far, for all we know.

You don't need Buckies to enjoy pain-free beekeeping.


nb Not affiliated in any way, nor a member of NIHBS.

 

[Uncle Betty]

I see that Norman Tebbit does not share the sense of loss some (not all) members of NIHBS are feeling today.

Onyerbike...

;-)

 

[Nubian]

Such drama.

It's a bit odd for a beginner to paint such a hostile picture of beekeeping in your district, and then to go straight for the import option. It's almost like a justification.

Apologies - perhaps I'm building up a picture based on comments from local keepers, focused through the lens of (dare I say it) vitriol which is sometimes on display in these pages when this subjest is discussed, and have formed an overly dramatic view of the situation.

It's probably true to say that local keepers would be open to discuss and give advice, but the strength of feeling displayed on this forum makes one hesitant about broaching in person any subject which might stir up such emotions.....

You are right that my own handling and husdandry are far from blameless, but I can't help asking myself whether I've ever seen a colony of Amm. that I'd be happy to routinely handle sans gloves...... and the honest answer has to be no. That's not to say they don't exist, merely that in my limited experience of my own colonies, a friend's colonies and the local BKA's apaiary, I haven't seen any that would inspire such confidence.
That's why I'm perhaps 'cutting to the chase' and considering other options.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Apologies - perhaps I'm building up a picture based on comments from local keepers, focused through the lens of (dare I say it) vitriol which is sometimes on display in these pages when this subjest is discussed, and have formed an overly dramatic view of the situation.

It's probably true to say that local keepers would be open to discuss and give advice, but the strength of feeling displayed on this forum makes one hesitant about broaching in person any subject which might stir up such emotions.....

You are right that my own handling and husdandry are far from blameless, but I can't help asking myself whether I've ever seen a colony of Amm. that I'd be happy to routinely handle sans gloves...... and the honest answer has to be no. That's not to say they don't exist, merely that in my limited experience of my own colonies, a friend's colonies and the local BKA's apaiary, I haven't seen any that would inspire such confidence.
That's why I'm perhaps 'cutting to the chase' and considering other options.

Fair comment.

Very best of luck with your bee-keeping whichever way you go.

 

[alfazer]

Apologies - perhaps I'm building up a picture based on comments from local keepers, focused through the lens of (dare I say it) vitriol which is sometimes on display in these pages when this subjest is discussed, and have formed an overly dramatic view of the situation.

It's probably true to say that local keepers would be open to discuss and give advice, but the strength of feeling displayed on this forum makes one hesitant about broaching in person any subject which might stir up such emotions.....

You are right that my own handling and husdandry are far from blameless, but I can't help asking myself whether I've ever seen a colony of Amm. that I'd be happy to routinely handle sans gloves...... and the honest answer has to be no. That's not to say they don't exist, merely that in my limited experience of my own colonies, a friend's colonies and the local BKA's apaiary, I haven't seen any that would inspire such confidence.
That's why I'm perhaps 'cutting to the chase' and considering other options.

I'd keep an open mind. I have had two colonies of black bees (no idea if they were true "Amm") that were the spawn of the devil...literally hundreds of stings on my suit on a couple of occasions. Dozens of followers.
New nuc of similar dark strain (and probably relatives of my earlier bees) from local BKA member and now I don't even need gloves, just use a jacket, veil, jeans and shoes.

 

[bpmurray]

T
You might quite reasonably and wisely question the above, so perhaps ask the above Society why the DNA results have not been released despite the testing being done on Irish bee stocks well over three years ago? I doubt there is a bee in Ireland with enough native genes to to enable it to be described as native. Morphometry, a less exact science, is now being promoted instead of DNA testing.

The reason the results have not been released is that they are to be published in one of the science journals (I heard rumours that it was Nature, but I really don't know). I think you will be quite shocked when you read the results.

BTW, the scientists in Limerick & Galway have been sampling bees over the past few years, not only 3 years ago. And the accuracy of DNA is light years ahead of morphometry guesstimates. I had a couple of samples tested last year and I'll happily share my results once the paper is published.

 

[bpmurray]

I keep AMM and they are quite well behaved. It appears that any mongrels do become vicious, but that's easily remedied by requeening. I had one hive that was nasty last year (my dogs now stay well away from the hives) - two days after requeening they were like pussycats. I have to admit that I was surprised at the rapid change, expecting it to take a generation, but it was almost right away.

While I believe that AMM are the best bees for the Irish environment, given that they evolved to survive the rather dull and damp environment, if you want to keep buckfast or carnolians or whatever, you're perfectly free to do so. However, anyone who keeps non-AMM in Ireland can expect them to be mongrelised with AMM in pretty short order with the consequent change in temperament.

The one thing I would really object to, though, is the importation of bees. SHB are in Italy and probably elsewhere, we're still free from Tropilaelaps and goodness knows what other pests: imports will guarantee that these arrive here at some point. Not importing will provide a serious barrier to becoming a pest here. If you want to have buckfasts, you can get them from a number of reputable breeders in Ireland - that's far preferable to importing.

 

[Swarm]

Two good posts bpmurray!
Whatever bee anyone decides to keep will not remain that type of bee, unless we all keep one type of bee.
I just look at this with the same perspective as grey and red squirrels and other introduced species, rarely if ever does it create improvement. I would like to see a stricter approach applied to ecological matters but I doubt that will ever happen.
I think the OP should also be able to see which 'side' is making the wrong noises after reading this thread.

 

[Beefriendly]

While I believe that AMM are the best bees for the Irish environment, given that they evolved to survive the rather dull and damp environment,

The emphasis should be on survival, which doesn't necessarily correlate with them having attributes a beekeeper desires. Amm's are interesting in that they tend to be bred for their racial purity rather than in a serious bee improvement program. I'm sure they have the potential, but I don't think it has been tapped into properly, yet.

There are always caveats to the native species being the best adapted. You only need look at Australia and rabbit and cane toad introductions etc to see that outsiders can, in some cases, out-compete the indigenous species or utilise a niche that is outside of the native species reach.
Himalayan balsam and grey squirrels also spring to mind.

 

[Swarm]

Amm's are interesting in that they tend to be bred for their racial purity rather than in a serious bee improvement program. I'm sure they have the potential, but I don't think it has been tapped into properly, yet.

Hopefully we will see that at some point but until people stop condemning AMM I fear it will take some time.

 

[Beefriendly]

Hopefully we will see that at some point but until people stop condemning AMM I fear it will take some time.

That needs to work on both "sides". Constant over-inflated blatant promotion of their attributes over any other type of bee can get a bit wearing. They, like all strains, have limitations.

 

[Nubian]

If you want to have buckfasts, you can get them from a number of reputable breeders in Ireland - that's far preferable to importing.

I understand and totally agreed that needless imports should be avoided, but I was unsure whether the buckfasts available in Ireland were of decent quality, rather than just stripey mongrels being passed off as something else. ( although, I suppose you could argue that a stripey mongrel is exactly what a buckfast is, even at the best of times.......) so it's reassuring that many of the posters on this thread agree that quality local buckfasts are indeed available, should I decide to follow that route.

I fully understand that they would be open to mongrelisation, but frankly my experience so far indicates that were I to keep quality Amm. stocks, they too would be prone to (bad tempered) mongrelisation. That's what I've got at the moment........

 

[betterbee]

groups of beekeepers should come together to help each other improve the bees they keep ,helping people especially beginners to improve/replace their bees when needed,our association produces nucs of bees for beginners ,any unsuitable nucs for whatever reason can be replaced raising the quality of bees in the area improving all beekeepers enjoyment no room in my opinion for agression in the beekeepers to each other never mind the bees being agressive

 

[B+.]

Not importing will provide a serious barrier to becoming a pest here.

The arrival of vespa valutina wasn't due to bee imports. They always seem to find a way.