How NOT to do an Artificial Swarm

[charlievictorbravo]

I did my first artificial swarm on 17 May but in hindsight, I realise I did just about everything wrong!

First off, I was so pleased to find the queen and not wishing to lose her that I did not take enough care in looking for Queen Cells on her frame. Four days later, the queen swarmed away and I was left with some more QCs in the artificial swarm hive.

On 30 May I saw a small swarm disappearing from my apiary away over the trees – a cast from the mother hive with the first virgin queen that emerged. I had a quick look in the original hive (mother hive) and found queen cells – fair enough – that’s what they’re supposed to do but I removed about four QCs and left two.

I read RAB’s helpful piece on what to look for in an artificial swarm - http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=418971#post418971 - and also found I’d put the super on top of the wrong box – it’s with the mother hive, not on top of the artificial swarm –b*gger. I had my book with me when I was doing the artificial swarm but in the excitement (confusion) of my first AS, I managed to confuse myself with which was the mother hive (“Oh, it’s the one with the queen in it” – Oh, no it isn’t!).

I’m now waiting for the emerged queens (he said hopefully) to mate and start laying eggs. The question is, what do I do about the super on the wrong box? Answers from beeks please whose brains aren’t addled by trying to figure out what’s going on in their hives.

Also, when should I be looking for eggs – the queen in the Artificial Swarm should have emerged on 29 May and in the Mother Hive on 5 June. Is it entirely weather dependent and when would it be safe to open them up to find out if there are laying queens in there?

CVB

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

And John 8-7

 

[oliver90owner]

when should I be looking for eggs

Lets think here.

Is she even able to fly immediately after emergence? No.

Is she sexually mature at emergence? No.

Can she come back from a mating flight and immediately start laying. No.

Is the mating process done and dusted in one flight. No.

The above all take time, about ten days.

The approx four days after emergence and after mating are relatively fixed. The rest is weather dependent and could add several days of a few weeks to the fixed timescale. If mating does not take place within a sensible period, she will start laying anyway - as a DLQ.

Clearly patience needs to be involved if you wish to find eggs at the first inspection, but what would that really accomplish? Nothing. She will lay when time and conditions allow and inspecting for eggs will not change that.

Unless you find laying workers (queen lost), polished cells (looking promising) or drone brood (about ten days after commencement of laying) you will learn nothing - apart from she is or she is not.

More likely they may need checking for stores in that time, dependent on supers going with the old queen or foraging opportunities orwhat was in the brood box initially (grrr to those that swarmed due to laying space with too much stores present!).

If you intend treating for varroa while no capped brood is present, that also may be a good reason for checking.

Sooo, after two weeks might be appropriate in good weather conditions if in a hurry for a varroa treatment, three weeks being usual for UK if you don't want to be inspecting unnecessarily; and then weekly thereafter, if you must. Of course, no point in making extra inspections unless the weather was conducive to mating sometime during the four days before, and three after, the previous one. So again, the thinking beek does not go looking in at every opportunity unless for good reason. It will not help, or change the outcome, in a positive way - more likely to lose the queen by interfering unnecessarily.

And of course don't inspect when mating flights are likely - earlier in the am or late in the pm, but not between midday up to perhaps 5 o'clock. Leave that window alone so the colony is not disturbed before, during, or immediatly after potential mating.

When seeing eggs, the decision is what to do after that. Laying by three weeks after emergence likely means a fertile queen, after six weeks the risk of a drone layer is far higher

Leaving her alone and checking later for laying pattern is good. The colony population will be falling and will not start to increase until when? after commencing laying. I will leave that one for you to ponder.

Drawing that simple time line might get you close to a figure, it not being quite as short a simple date issue. Previous inspection notes of capped brood, etc are helpful if you wanted to work it out fairly accurately. Personally, I don't bother nor care, but have done it as an excercise in my earlier beekeeping days.

RAB

Edit: The supers. Clear them down, unless one is needed now there is no brood to feed, and transfer to the colony with all the foragers! Unless a super has already been added to that. Think here, not too many foragers in the parent colony, they may be needing some stores anyway as food reserve, the part-filled boxes could have already been filled and capped by the old queen part (but unlikely by the parent colony). Feeding sugar syrup to the parent colony (should they need it) is cheaper than using honey stores. Missed the boat on that one really; might even have just avoided a cast from the parent colony what with more bees transferred to the old queen part ag A/S! Happy thinking.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

And John 8-7

John 8-10 modified for newbees "And RAB said unto them 'neither do I condemn thee: go, THINK and sin no more'"

CVB

 

[SireeDubs]

Have just been in the position of waiting for a new queen following an AS. Having patience was challenging, but (as I've often seen RAB recommend), I drew a timeline with earliest/latest egg-sighting scenario... With that in hand, I waited three weeks from emergence, as recommended by advice and looked tentatively. Eggs were seen! I saw some doubled up in some cells and instantly thought of laying workers, but closed up, did some research and concluded that the most likely scenario (based on my helpful timeline) was that it was the queen just getting going. Also the eggs were right at the bottom of cells, not on side of cell like laying workers... A week later and the hives starting to be packed with brood.

Basically, having read RAB's advice above, that's exactly how it happened. And don't panic when she starts laying doubles etc!

Good luck.
T

 

[charlievictorbravo]

when should I be looking for eggs

Lets think here.

Is she even able to fly immediately after emergence? No.

Is she sexually mature at emergence? No.

Can she come back from a mating flight and immediately start laying. No.

Is the mating process done and dusted in one flight. No.

The above all take time, about ten days.

The approx four days after emergence and after mating are relatively fixed. The rest is weather dependent and could add several days of a few weeks to the fixed timescale. If mating does not take place within a sensible period, she will start laying anyway - as a DLQ.

Clearly patience needs to be involved if you wish to find eggs at the first inspection, but what would that really accomplish? Nothing. She will lay when time and conditions allow and inspecting for eggs will not change that.

Unless you find laying workers (queen lost), polished cells (looking promising) or drone brood (about ten days after commencement of laying) you will learn nothing - apart from she is or she is not.

More likely they may need checking for stores in that time, dependent on supers going with the old queen or foraging opportunities orwhat was in the brood box initially (grrr to those that swarmed due to laying space with too much stores present!).

If you intend treating for varroa while no capped brood is present, that also may be a good reason for checking.

Sooo, after two weeks might be appropriate in good weather conditions if in a hurry for a varroa treatment, three weeks being usual for UK if you don't want to be inspecting unnecessarily; and then weekly thereafter, if you must. Of course, no point in making extra inspections unless the weather was conducive to mating sometime during the four days before, and three after, the previous one. So again, the thinking beek does not go looking in at every opportunity unless for good reason. It will not help, or change the outcome, in a positive way - more likely to lose the queen by interfering unnecessarily.

And of course don't inspect when mating flights are likely - earlier in the am or late in the pm, but not between midday up to perhaps 5 o'clock. Leave that window alone so the colony is not disturbed before, during, or immediatly after potential mating.

When seeing eggs, the decision is what to do after that. Laying by three weeks after emergence likely means a fertile queen, after six weeks the risk of a drone layer is far higher

Leaving her alone and checking later for laying pattern is good. The colony population will be falling and will not start to increase until when? after commencing laying. I will leave that one for you to ponder.

Drawing that simple time line might get you close to a figure, it not being quite as short a simple date issue. Previous inspection notes of capped brood, etc are helpful if you wanted to work it out fairly accurately. Personally, I don't bother nor care, but have done it as an excercise in my earlier beekeeping days.

RAB

Edit: The supers. Clear them down, unless one is needed now there is no brood to feed, and transfer to the colony with all the foragers! Unless a super has already been added to that. Think here, not too many foragers in the parent colony, they may be needing some stores anyway as food reserve, the part-filled boxes could have already been filled and capped by the old queen part (but unlikely by the parent colony). Feeding sugar syrup to the parent colony (should they need it) is cheaper than using honey stores. Missed the boat on that one really; might even have just avoided a cast from the parent colony what with more bees transferred to the old queen part ag A/S! Happy thinking.

Thanks for that - taken on board.

I did think about a Varroa treatment but only had a natural drop of 7 mites in 14 days so decided not to stress them any more with a treatment that was not really needed.

I will clear and move the super across to the Artificial Swarm from the Parent Colony as soon as the weather permits but avoiding possible mating flight windows.

Sooo, as we're supposed to have good weather later this week, late next week might be a good time for an inspection to check for eggs, etc. That would nearly 3 weeks after theoretical emergence of the queen from the AS Colony and 2 1/2 weeks after the queen's emergence in the Parent Colony. I'll put the time line for each on a calendar to make sure I've got it right before I go in!

Here's hoping everything will be ok and I have queens in each hive.

CVB

 

[oliver90owner]

Not sure whenoyou did your mite count, but I only go by those if I have collaborating evidence.

Remember, there will be far more phoretic mites when all brood has emerged! Culling first capped brood will mop up quite a lot and is not too stressfull on the bees. Treatment now can be less stressfull for them than a high varroa load and a hard treatment later. Think about that, too. Always something ahead which may need to be considered (thought about) at the present time. Keep thinking.

RAB

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Sorry to drift the thread a little but if she lays until she goes, as my swarmed Q did, then by the time all the drones have emerged, her daughter may be laying. Are we saying we can go ahead with OA, regardless of possible presence of eggs?

 

[oliver90owner]

Let's go back a stage. Do swarming queens leave drone eggs behind? Or even in most cases, open drone brood?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Mine did. Good numbers. She laid the day she went. Can't swear to her having laid drone eggs but she was laying that day.

 

[Finman]

Sorry to drift the thread a little but if she lays until she goes, as my swarmed Q did, then by the time all the drones have emerged, her daughter may be laying. Are we saying we can go ahead with OA, regardless of possible presence of eggs?

Idea is to give OA to the swarm, not to brood hive. Or what is OA?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what is OA?

Here you go finny - save you doing the googling for a change.



Oxalic acid is an organic compound with the formula H2C2O4. It is a colorless crystalline solid that dissolves in water to give colorless solutions. It is classified as a dicarboxylic acid. In terms of acid strength, it is much stronger than acetic acid. Oxalic acid is a reducing agent and its conjugate base, known as oxalate (C2O42−), is a chelating agent for metal cations. Typically, oxalic acid occurs as the dihydrate with the formula H2C2O4•2H2O.
Oral consumption of oxalic acid in excess or prolonged skin contact can be dangerous.
Oxalic acid is mainly manufactured by the oxidation of carbohydrates or glucose using nitric acid or air in the presence of vanadium pentoxide. A variety of precursors can be used including glycolic acid and ethylene glycol.[ A newer method entails oxidative carbonylation of alcohols to give the diesters of oxalic acid: ROH + 4 CO + O2 → 2 (CO2R)2 + 2 H2O
These diesters are subsequently hydrolyzed to oxalic acid. Approximately 120,000 tonnes are produced annually.
Historically oxalic acid was obtained exclusively by using caustics, such as sodium or potassium hydroxide, on sawdust
Vaporized oxalic acid, or a 3.2% solution of oxalic acid in sugar syrup, is used by some beekeepers as a miticide against the parasitic varroa mite

Hope that helps

 

[Finman]

Hope that helps

It did not. I feel pain for BB

(You forget to mention that it is illegal to kill mites with OA according English law. I do not know how it is in Scottish or Welsh law.)

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Finman; in response to your question we are discussing mite treatment for a colony that has lost a prime swarm.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It did not. I feel pain for BB

You forget to mention that it is illegal to kill mites with OA according English law.QUOTE]
Nope - it's just illegal to mix your own - buying it ready mixed is fine

 

[Finman]

Finman; in response to your question we are discussing mite treatment for a colony that has lost a prime swarm.

Now it is not time to do that. Principle is that it is done outside the yield season.
If the hive has brood, then use formic acid or thymol. If it has honey, do not use anything.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If it has honey, do not use anything.

You can use MAQS

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Varroa Count

The count of 7 mites in 14 days was from the Parent Colony, starting 5 days after the AS. So during that period the capped brood was diminishing all the time. Three days after the count finished, no more workers should have emerged although drones should finish emerging until today. I hear what you say about brood culling but as there has been no eggs laid in either colony for at least 20 days, as of now, I'm reluctant to set them back even by a few days, while the colony sets about building up its numbers.

Incidentally, I put a clearer board on the parent hive at 6 pm to empty the super and the bees were noticeably calmer than the last time I had the roof off so I'm hopeful there's a queen in there working her magic. Unfortunately, when I went back at 8 pm to move the super, it still had lots of bees in it so I left it 'til the morning when hopefully it will be empty of bees, ready to be moved across to the Artificial Swarm.

CVB

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Start of Second Varroa Count

Today, I moved the super from above the Parent Colony to above the Artificial Swarm where it should have been. I took the opportunity to put the super frames onto a 10-frame castellation box and everything was calm so that's all good.

I also inspected the monitoring tray that was under the AS. Found 3 mites from 5 days of monitoring. I'll carry on monitoring to get at least 7 days-worth of monitoring.

The attached photos show a couple of mites plus some darker unidentified items. Their surface is very rough and it could possible be a seed - they roll around quite easily and are about the same size as Varroa D. Anybody recognise what they are?

CVB

 

[Cazza]

The attached photos show a couple of mites plus some darker unidentified items. Their surface is very rough and it could possible be a seed - they roll around quite easily and are about the same size as Varroa D. Anybody recognise what they are?

CVB

Pollen?
Cazza