How long can I keep a colony queenless?

[ugcheleuce]

Hello everyone

I'm a weekend beekeeper, and I can only visit my hives on Mondays.

A week ago, I had this one hive, let's call it hive "#1". Last Monday (let's call it day 0), I removed most frames and most nurse bees from hive #1 and put them in a new hive, hive "#2", a few feet away from hive #1. So, on day 0, hive #1 has a queen and hive #2 is queenless.

Today (day 7), I expect to see some rescue queen cells in hive #2. Is that correct? I intend today to break all those rescue cells, and then add one frame from hive #1 containing eggs/larvae.

Next Monday (day 14), I will expect to see only rescue queen cells on that one frame that I added (but I gather that there is a small chance that there may be viable rescue cells elsewhere, if the bees for some reason decided to work on a larvae that was about to be capped anyway. Is that correct? On that day, I intend to break all rescue cells again, and remove the previously added frame, and add a new frame from hive #1 with eggs/larvae.

The Monday after that (day 21), I expect to see what I saw on day 14. I also expect that all of the worker brood will have hatched (except on the frame that I had added), and that if any closed brood is left, it would be drone brood, and that there would not be much of it.

My intention is to split hive #2 into two or three smaller hives with drawn comb (no brood) and a new queen in each (and at the same time to varroa control, since there is no closed brood). Do you think this is feasible?

However, I may not be able to get new queens on day 21 (the local queen seller may be sold out). Perhaps I can only get new queens by day 28 or by day 35. Would it be okay for me to delay the splitting of hive #2 into three smaller hives by simply repeating what I have done in the previous weeks (i.e. adding a frame with eggs/larvae and breaking any existing rescue cells)? For how many iterations do you think would I be able to do that?

Will the nurse bees eventually start flying, if there is no brood to care for? What is the best thing that I can do to hive #2 right now to make sure it gets the best chance in life? The tilia flow is about to start, but my goal is not honey -- my goal is to split hive #2 into three viable smaller colonies.

Thanks
Samuel

 

[oliver90owner]

You can keep them going indefinitely by adding brood. Adding open brood tends to avoid laying workers, but you could add some emerging brood, too.

Not all nurse bees are less than about four days old.

The best thing you could do to hive #2? Give it a queen?

I cannot see why you did not wait, until you knew the eta of your new queens, before doing anthing with hive#1

Nothing stopping you performing varroa control at the present time either. Or for that matter at day 21 onwards. Why not order your queens now for an expected fixed delivery date?

Why not make up nucs, when the queens arrive, with broodless frames

Lots of options, as I see it.

Just seems overly complicated due to lack of forward planning.

 

[Skyhook]

Firstly, I think you're being greedy with your numbers. You have half a colony in hive 2. You intend to split this into 3, giving each colony 1/6 of the original- about the size of a small cast. That would be plenty for a mating nucleus, but each one is going to struggle to build up this season.

Secondly- are you unhapy with your strain of bees? why not just let them raise their own queen?

Thirdly- do you have another apiary? By the time you do your next split all the bees in the hive will be flying, and will return to the original hive 2 location if within 3 miles.

I'm not sure what all the business with frames in/ frames out is about. If your intention is to remove varroa then you need to wait until the existing brood has emerged (day 21), then put in a frame of eggs and brood, wait until that is capped then remove around day 29 and destroy.

It seems to me you will now have a small number of middle-aged bees. If you were looking for the worst scenario for queen introduction it would probably be mature bees in the middle of summer.

I have a nasty feeling that you've been reading the books, seen lots of interesting ideas, and want to try them all at once. Keep it simple for your first couple of seasons, until you are more familiar with the ways of bees.

Given where you are now, I would suggest reducing the queen cells in hive 2 to one good open cell and treating it as a walk- away split. At the most, re-split into 2 with a queen cell each. By day 21 all the brood will have emerged. Between then and the new queen's brood being sealed you have a perfect opportunity to treat with oxalic acid which will give an almost complete kill.


.

 

[ugcheleuce]

I cannot see why you did not wait, until you knew the eta of your new queens, before doing anthing with hive#1.

I'm learning as I go along.

Why not order your queens now for an expected fixed delivery date?

That is what I intend to do, but I've been told that the queue can sometimes be quite long, and I was curious about how long I can delay the final split. I originally planned to let the bees make their own queens, and a lot sooner than 21 days from now, but the possibility of putting new queens was raised with me this past week, and I'm just making sure I've got my facts straight.

Why not make up nucs, when the queens arrive, with broodless frames.

That is precisely what I'm now considering. However, I can only work with my bees on Mondays, and I don't want to risk a hopelessly queenless colony thinking that workers ought to be laying eggs. I've had egg-laying workers last year and I don't want to chance it this year.

Just seems overly complicated due to lack of forward planning.

Well, it's not a complete lack of planning. I had plans since two or three months ago, but things didn't work out as planned (had an unexpected disease in one colony and an unexpected delay with the delivery of another colony), and of course the weather hasn't been the same as other years, and that means adjusting the plans.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Firstly, I think you're being greedy with your numbers. You have half a colony in hive 2. You intend to split this into 3, giving each colony 1/6 of the original- about the size of a small cast.

It really depends on how big the colony is by the time I split it.

Hive #2 currently has about 75% of the original frames, with lots of brood just waiting to come out, plus about 70-90% of the original nurse bees. Over the next two weeks, all of the remaining brood will come out, which means that there will be even more bees. I'm confident that I'll have enough bees for splitting hive #2 into two to four nucs.

How long does it take a 3-4 frame nucleus to get strong enough for overwintering?

That would be plenty for a mating nucleus, but each one is going to struggle to build up this season.

I would be quite happy if those nucs make it through the coming winter.

Secondly- are you unhapy with your strain of bees? Why not just let them raise their own queen?

Letting them raise their own queens was the original idea, but I'm getting a lot of flack local beekeepers whose opinion I respect (or have to respect). The problem is that these bees are third-generation Buckfast bees, and local belief is that the next generation will be so aggressive that I'll lose the goodwill of the apiary owner. And new F1 Buckfast queens from a reputable local dealer can be had for EUR 7.50 a pop.

Thirdly- do you have another apiary? By the time you do your next split all the bees in the hive will be flying, and will return to the original hive 2 location if within 3 miles.

Fortunately, I have access to at least two other locations outside a 5 mile radius.

I'm not sure what all the business with frames in/ frames out is about.

It's to prevent the colony from becoming hopelessly queenless, which would increase the risk of egg-laying workers.

If your intention is to remove varroa then you need to wait until the existing brood has emerged (day 21), then put in a frame of eggs and brood, wait until that is capped then remove around day 29 and destroy.

My intended method of varroa control would be to spray the bees with acid before I put them into the nuc boxes.

I have a nasty feeling that you've been reading the books, seen lots of interesting ideas, and want to try them all at once. Keep it simple for your first couple of seasons, until you are more familiar with the ways of bees.

Thanks for your opinion but I'm actually trying to keep things simple. The books all assume that (a) the beekeeper is available every day and (b) the weather this year is the same as every year for the past twenty years.

Given where you are now, I would suggest reducing the queen cells in hive 2 to one good open cell and treating it as a walk- away split. At the most, re-split into 2 with a queen cell each. By day 21 all the brood will have emerged. Between then and the new queen's brood being sealed you have a perfect opportunity to treat with oxalic acid which will give an almost complete kill.

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting that I split hive #2 immediately, and not wait another two weeks until most of the brood has come out?

 

[Skyhook]

Do I understand correctly that you're suggesting that I split hive #2 immediately, and not wait another two weeks until most of the brood has come out?

Yes. If you are going to let them raise a queen then they might as well do it with their first batch of cells, which are likely to be the best nourished. If you are buying queens, then the younger the population the more likely they are to accept her.

.