How fast will bees move honey around?

[Sutty]

I've just nadired a full super of capped largely granulated honey under a strong colony after running a heather roller over it to break the cappings. Varroa board in (in case of drips & to lessen scent to outside) and entrance restricted against wasps.
How long would you expect them to take to move it - they have space up top?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

after having that lot dumped on them, I wouldn't be surprised if they just left it where it is

 

[Sutty]

I guess that's possible, though I hope not. I need to get these frames emptied as they are VERY old, and are now brittle. A couple of lugs broke just removing them.
I don't fancy leaving them outside to be robbed out!!
I've emptied a few frames by bruising them & putting them where the bees won't want them, but never this much.
Se shall see I guess!

 

[pargyle]

Rather than nadiring if you want them cleaned out I would have put the super above the brood box above a board with a small hole in, with the super to be cleaned out above an empty super (No frames).

But even then it may be a big ask ... are you on standard nationals and is there enough room in there for a super full of honey to be stored and still leave space for the queen to lay up the winter bees ?

Alternatively, if you are getting rid of the frames beg or borrow a press (a fruit press will do) and cut the combs out and press the honey out ... you could then spread the feeding over several colonies.

 

[Sutty]

Rather than nadiring if you want them cleaned out I would have put the super above the brood box above a board with a small hole in, with the super to be cleaned out above an empty super (No frames).

But even then it may be a big ask ... are you on standard nationals and is there enough room in there for a super full of honey to be stored and still leave space for the queen to lay up the winter bees ?

Alternatively, if you are getting rid of the frames beg or borrow a press (a fruit press will do) and cut the combs out and press the honey out ... you could then spread the feeding over several colonies.

There's definitely enough space as they have 2 nearly empty supers on top. I'll look what's happening tomorrow - I could put a completely empty super then a board/cloth with a small hole, then the full super. Last time I did this (without the empty super) for wet supers they weren't too interested, but there was more coming in.
Thanks.

 

[drex]

So you have nadired a full super so that they can move it up into 2 empty supers???? Why?

 

[pargyle]

There's definitely enough space as they have 2 nearly empty supers on top. I'll look what's happening tomorrow - I could put a completely empty super then a board/cloth with a small hole, then the full super. Last time I did this (without the empty super) for wet supers they weren't too interested, but there was more coming in.
Thanks.

Did you have a queen excluder between the brood box and the supers ? Indeed, have you got one there now ? At this time of the year you really want them to be thinking the first super is part of their brood nest and they will put stores above it ready for winter. If you have an obstruction like a QE they may be reluctant to move stores down,

 

[pargyle]

So you have nadired a full super so that they can move it up into 2 empty supers???? Why?

Yes ... I realised that after I had posted ... just making hard work for them unnecessarily, Take the existing empty supers off and leave the nadired one on top of the brood box without a queen excluder... it's that awful (IMO) brood and a half configuration but I know a lot of people overwinter standard nationals like this.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There's definitely enough space as they have 2 nearly empty supers on top

So you have nadired a full super so that they can move it up into 2 empty supers???? Why

 

[Sutty]

2 empty supers were give back after extracting.
I need to get rid of the old very brittle frames. 2 have missing lugs already & will be more if I have to remove them again.
It's either get the bees to remove the honey or dump an entire super of honey in the bin!!

 

[pargyle]

2 empty supers were give back after extracting.
I need to get rid of the old very brittle frames. 2 have missing lugs already & will be more if I have to remove them again.
It's either get the bees to remove the honey or dump an entire super of honey in the bin!!

Do you REALLY need to get rid of 'old and brittle' super frames ? ...Super frames are such a valuable commodity - I have some that are at least 8 or 9 years old and still serviceable and I know a local bee farmer who has some twice that age. There appears to be a propensity for 'frame replacement' ... I rarely see bees refusing to use any comb, no matter how old it is. If they don't like any bits of it they will tear it down and rebuild it.

I can understand wanting to get them to use stores in that frame but ... I think you may be missing a trick getting rid of the comb/frames.

 

[Sutty]

These are probably well over 25 years old, 2 broke just separating them horizontally from its neighbour - so yes they need to go. I'm not worried about the comb but the wood!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

break it all up then and put it in a large rapid feeder

 

[elainemary]

I've always nadir supers of largely uncapped honey and even some capped, in the past 5 seasons, finding relatively clean supers in the Spring. However, I've decided on a different approach this year. I'm leaving on top with Q/E out.

Ive listened to views on travel stains, the extra work involved etc but also the disturbance to & extra work for the bees. I've always been concerned about finding brood in the supers in the spring but decided the only way to find out is to try it. So far I'm bought into the reduced work for me and them. Will find out how much brood 'soiling' of the super happens and ease of finding the queen if she's in the super, in the Spring.

Only concern now, is I vape with OA in winter from the top via an eke (easiest for polyhives and WBCs) and whether to leave super on whilst I do this or not & how much will this disturb them in winter, think I'll leave it on. Again, can't properly assess, until you try it.

 

[pargyle]

I've always nadir supers of largely uncapped honey and even some capped, in the past 5 seasons, finding relatively clean supers in the Spring. However, I've decided on a different approach this year. I'm leaving on top with Q/E out.

Ive listened to views on travel stains, the extra work involved etc but also the disturbance to & extra work for the bees. I've always been concerned about finding brood in the supers in the spring but decided the only way to find out is to try it. So far I'm bought into the reduced work for me and them. Will find out how much brood 'soiling' of the super happens and ease of finding the queen if she's in the super, in the Spring.

Only concern now, is I vape with OA in winter from the top via an eke (easiest for polyhives and WBCs) and whether to leave super on whilst I do this or not & how much will this disturb them in winter, think I'll leave it on. Again, can't properly assess, until you try it.

Brood in the supers in Spring is not a problem ... I run without queen excluders ... the queen sometimes lays up in the first super in Spring when I put my supers on but as the season goes on they backfill with honey. There's also no issue with 'soiling' ... not quite sure what you are worrying about in that respect.
The queen usually retreats back down into the brood box but I don't particularly worry where she is as, without queen excluders, she can wander where she wants to go. I don't normally take a spring crop but if it was that good a flow in spring and there was brood in the first super I would add a second super. I run 14 x 12 so there's usually more than enough space for the queen to lay in the brood box.

 

[elainemary]

Brood in the supers in Spring is not a problem ... I run without queen excluders ... the queen sometimes lays up in the first super in Spring when I put my supers on but as the season goes on they backfill with honey. There's also no issue with 'soiling' ... not quite sure what you are worrying about in that respect.
The queen usually retreats back down into the brood box but I don't particularly worry where she is as, without queen excluders, she can wander where she wants to go. I don't normally take a spring crop but if it was that good a flow in spring and there was brood in the first super I would add a second super. I run 14 x 12 so there's usually more than enough space for the queen to lay in the brood box.

Thanks Philip. Guess as I've not done it this way before, I don't know what to expect. Worse scenario being the whole of the super is full of brood, taking that super out of action for 3 weeks, though as you say another can be added.
Ive not had to replace any super comb (aside from cutcomb) in last 6 seasons as nadir and they always come out clean, so if brood is in the super could mean more super frames to get drawn once they become darker. Only way to find out is to try...and to be on the ball, adding a queen excluder in the spring, thanks for your reassurance.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks Philip. Guess as I've not done it this way before, I don't know what to expect. Worse scenario being the whole of the super is full of brood, taking that super out of action for 3 weeks, though as you say another can be added.
Ive not had to replace any super comb (aside from cutcomb) in last 6 seasons as nadir and they always come out clean, so if brood is in the super could mean more super frames to get drawn once they become darker. Only way to find out is to try...and to be on the ball, adding a queen excluder in the spring, thanks for your reassurance.

The comb does get a little darker over time when they has been brood in it but, unless you intend using it for cut comb, it's not a problem. The bees will happily clean the cells out and store honey in them. Obviously, for cut comb you really want nice fresh wax - from the point of view of both appearance and for something that is chewy and not too brittle.

I very rarely replace super comb - such a valuable resource.

I know there are people who think that comb is 'dirty' once it has had brood in it .... sadly, another beekeeping myth in my opinion.

If my queens (on top of my 14 x 12 brood boxes) decide to fill a super with brood then I'd be a
happy bunny .... all those bees - and it would tell me that I've got a super fecund queen who really needs more brood space, The reality is that, most of the time, they put an arc of honey above the brood area and the queen does not tend to lay in cells above the honey arc so she only really lays up a bit in the centre of the first super.

 

[Delgirl]

I've always nadir supers of largely uncapped honey and even some capped, in the past 5 seasons, finding relatively clean supers in the Spring. However, I've decided on a different approach this year. I'm leaving on top with Q/E out.

Ive listened to views on travel stains, the extra work involved etc but also the disturbance to & extra work for the bees. I've always been concerned about finding brood in the supers in the spring but decided the only way to find out is to try it. So far I'm bought into the reduced work for me and them. Will find out how much brood 'soiling' of the super happens and ease of finding the queen if she's in the super, in the Spring.

Only concern now, is I vape with OA in winter from the top via an eke (easiest for polyhives and WBCs) and whether to leave super on whilst I do this or not & how much will this disturb them in winter, think I'll leave it on. Again, can't properly assess, until you try it.

I have this approach too. I have poly Langstroths and leave a super of honey on over winter (MD frames). I only have 3 poly Langstroths (have just purchased a long hive to save my ageing back) but all have produced well this year and bees are healthy, productive and active. I took last of crop yesterday and have again left on a MD super for each of them to complete their build up for Autumn. Will start OA vaping this weekend (3 cycles 5 days apart) as I did last year and again around Christmas. I have never nadired - more to do with all the lifting and disturbance involved. I use ekes with holes in the side to vape from the top. Again, less disturbance for the bees as far as I am concerned.

 

[elainemary]

I have this approach too. I have poly Langstroths and leave a super of honey on over winter (MD frames). I only have 3 poly Langstroths (have just purchased a long hive to save my ageing back) but all have produced well this year and bees are healthy, productive and active. I took last of crop yesterday and have again left on a MD super for each of them to complete their build up for Autumn. Will start OA vaping this weekend (3 cycles 5 days apart) as I did last year and again around Christmas. I have never nadired - more to do with all the lifting and disturbance involved. I use ekes with holes in the side to vape from the top. Again, less disturbance for the bees as far as I am concerned.

All sounds good & reassuring.
Thanks for sharing

 

[alancooper]

All sounds good & reassuring.
Thanks for sharing

Leaving an autumn super on top without a Q excluder, in my part of the country, leaves crystallised Ivy honey by Spring. I usually nadir wet supers in Autumn. By Spring they have been cleaned and can be moved to the top, over an excluder.